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Author Topic:   Germany before, China now; Darwinism on the rampage
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006

Message 3 of 6 (409310)
07-08-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2007 2:51 PM

Your whole post is based on the assumption that what is "natural" is good and what is "unnatural" is bad.
Remove this assumption and I am not sure that you have any point at all.
The naturalistic fallacy I am sure you are aware of but here it is anyway Naturalistic fallacy - Wikipedia
As an example - I would consider rape to be natural and in many ways an inevitable penomenon in a large society but still completely morally reprehensible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-08-2007 2:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-08-2007 4:27 PM Straggler has replied

Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006

Message 6 of 6 (409334)
07-08-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2007 4:27 PM

Exactly my point. If a bull runs up on a grazing cow and copulates with her, whether she seems to be annoyed by it largely seems inconsequential to us. Its just bovine doing what bovine do. But when a man sexual plunders a woman, we are horrified. Why is that?
You are still suffering badly from the naturalistic fallacy.
Why should a bull copulating be in any way morally equivelent to human rape except in the context of the naturalistic fallacy???
If we live as the animals do, and in fact are just animals, why or how are we imparted this knowledge that it is morally reprehensible to sexually plunder people against their will when it is perfectly natural for bovine to do it?
We have empathy. We know what suffering we impart on others through our actions. We have a sense of right and wrong. We have evolved intelligence, empathy and morality.
Naturalism has no good explanations for this. Only unsubstantiated conjecture on why they think their explanation has some sort of explanatory power.
If you can conceive of the social conditions in which the ability to empathise can evolve then there is no real problem for the theory in the sense of it having been falsified.
Conjecture - Yes up to a point. Psychology is a new and frankly relatively weak science. Very few would argue that psychology has the sort of established foundations that the physicla sciences have.
It does however offer the best and most tested explanations to date.
But what alternatives do you propose for mans universal bestial nature combined with the socially cohesive morality that restricts it?
Naturalistic answers are more honed and tested than any other.
What alternatives do you propose? What tests have been done on these alternatives? Are there any prediction that have been verified or refuted based on these non-naturalistic alternatives?
If the answer is no to all the above why should we take these alternatives as anything other than inferior theories not worth persevering with?
Until you stop equating naturalism as necessarily equating with human moral bankruptcy you are missing the point entirely.
Many natural things are undesirable/bad (rape, disease, famine, pestilance). Many unnatural things are desirable/good (medicine, agriculture, computers etc.)
Why does whether or not something is natural have any bearing on whether it is right or wrong?
Stop equating cows with people on a moral level. You may as well ask a cow what it's favorite film is!!
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-08-2007 4:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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