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Author Topic:   How did food evolve?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 76 of 86 (405419)
06-12-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
06-12-2007 7:28 PM


This isn't well known, but it's actually the Fantastic Five. Because of the nature of my work here I naturally have to keep a low profile.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 77 of 86 (405421)
06-12-2007 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Percy
06-12-2007 10:02 AM


Percy writes:
I've been envying you your missing wisdom teeth all these years, but now the tally evens up! My sister is allergic to bee stings, I know how bad that can be. I, on the other hand, am fairly insensitive to bee and wasp stings, they're like mosquito bites are to most other people. And my mosquito bites disappear within 15 or 20 minutes. I have no idea if there's a genetic basis to this, but I would suspect so. I don't know if it's related, but acetaminophen (Tylenol) has no effect on me, either, though I don't think I ever went beyond a double-dose.
I have a friend from college that lived for a year in a remote region of India. She told me that the people in the village she lived in had never heard of a thing called mosquito itch. Those people, for some reason, did not have any reaction to the mosquito bite at all. She basically went around and tried to talk to everyone in the village and they were all the same. They had never heard of such a thing.
So, I guess there are human populations out there that have some kind of genetic immunity to mosquito allergic reation.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 78 of 86 (405551)
06-13-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by WS-JW
06-11-2007 1:10 PM


More Book Recommendations
A couple books I would recommend for someone, such as yourself, just starting out:
"Darwin for Beginners" by Jonathan Miller and Borin van Loon. It was part of a series of intro books, the only other one I know of being for Einstein. In a kind of comic-book format, Sherlock Holmes investigates "The Strange Case of Charles Darwin and Evolution". It covers the historical development of evolutionary ideas and present them and a number of the principal players. It's still in print, as far as I can tell.
"Blueprints: Solving the Mystery of Evolution" by Maitland Edey and Donald Johanson. Provides a historical overview of the development of the ideas relating to evolution. Its main strength is that it describes how the principal players had arrived at their conclusions. One of the main problems with science education is that it just presents the conclusions of science without showing how those conclusions were arrived at, which among other things gives the false impression that science is dogmatic. This book appears to no longer be in print, but copies should be in libraries (you might have to visit a college library) and people are selling it on amazon.com.
Do drop in now and again to let us know how your studies are going.

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 Message 55 by WS-JW, posted 06-11-2007 1:10 PM WS-JW has not replied

  
numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6091 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 79 of 86 (406799)
06-22-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by gert
06-04-2007 9:33 PM


That really has nothing to do with my question. I asked how organisms developed this ability. I'm also not going to read the entire ATP article!
Evolution is a process that has been going on since the very miliseconds after the Big Bang started. To be able to explain how food evolved to a creationist/intelligent designist requires you to be able to explain every evolutionary advancement ad infinitum back to singularity. If you don't have the ability to do so...your opinion will be wrong. If you start by providing the answer to the initial question you will have infinite more work to do. It's a catch 22. Don't fall into the trap.
Find out first if they are willing to change their opinion if you explain the answer to the original question. "If I can explain that to you will you reconsider?" If the answer is no...don't waste your time. If the answer is yes...proceed with caution

I think therefore I am...busy

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 80 of 86 (406821)
06-22-2007 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by numnuts
06-22-2007 1:32 PM


It is a common creationist trick to have a list of "unanswerable questions" that they will toss out at their opponents. This "how did food evolve?" is one such question, albeit more idiotic than most. They will insist that they really want you to answer that question, but when you do (as I had several times with one particularly dishonest creationist, Bill Morgan of http://www.fishdontwalk.com) then they suddenly lose all interest in that question and immediately toss a different "unanswerable question" at you, again insisting fervently that they really and truly want to hear your answer, only to react in the exact same way when you do answer it.
Bill Morgan once let slip his reason for asking those questions: he wants to make his opponent look foolish. They are also used in proselytizing, by putting your mark (ie, con-game victim) in an untenable position where he will be vulnerable to conversion. As I stated back in 2000 on my page about Bill Morgan's "unanswerable questions" (at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/bills_questions.html):
quote:
Bill's questions to me were never meant to be answerable. Their purpose is as part of proselytizing, whereby they are meant to put me on the defense, to knock my feet out from under me, or at the very least to discredit me and my position before others. They came more-or-less directly out of the Christian-to-atheist example dialogs that appear in the fundamentalist literature and which are meant to be training tools for proselytization. Bill has included a few in his own writings, such as his "QUESTIONS ATHEISTS HOPE YOU'LL NEVER ASK THEM:" section of Weird Science (No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/weird_science.html).
Bill had our dialog all planned out and, I think, much of Bill's frustration with me was that I refused to follow his script. I would answer his unanswerable questions, as directly and honestly as I could, to which he himself had no response. Furthermore, I would also explain to him what he was trying to do with his question. He often tried to claim that I had not answered his question, but he never ever answered my question of why he thought so. I have never seen Bill make any attempt to support any of his claims.
And at the same time, he, like far too many creationists I've encountered over the past few decades, absolutely refuse to answer simple answerable questions that I pose, such as "what did you mean by that statement?" and "Why do you think that poses any problem for evolution?" and "Could you please clarify this particular claim?" and "Why do you think that I hadn't answered your question?".
I posted a number of his "unanswerable questions" at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/bills_questions.html, along with links to my response and his lack of response. You might recognized a few that have been thrown at you:
quote:
"Do you think the earth is 4.6 billion years old? Why?"
"Which life appeared first? Please answer that."
"Please give me the strongest piece of scientific evidence that the blue whale is related to bacteria."
"So give me the strongest reason why you think bacteria are the ancestors to blue whales."
"You consider yourself "wise," yet believe in spontaneous generation. If you do not beleive in spontaneous generation please provide me witht eh best explanation you have for the origin of life. Can you? Will you?"
"Do you have a better explanation than the Garden of Eden for the origin of Meisosis reproduction? Do you beleive Mitosis reproducing animals are the ancestors of Meisosis animals?"
"If God exists, should the kids be taught about Him?"
"Dave, what is an explanation for polystrate fossils?"
(I requested that he give me an example of one plus its documentation; he had to admit that he could not)
"mr Wise.....give me your best explanation for the origin of life."
Edited by dwise1, :

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by bluegenes, posted 06-23-2007 1:26 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 81 of 86 (406983)
06-23-2007 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Percy
06-12-2007 10:02 AM


Percy writes:
I don't know if it's related, but acetaminophen (Tylenol) has no effect on me, either, though I don't think I ever went beyond a double-dose.
It's possible. Paracetamol (as acetaminophen is known to me) inhibits cyclooxygenase-3, an enzyme which produces prostaglandins. Prostaglandin D2 is a mediator of pain perception, but is also involved in allergic reactions. Injection of prostaglandin D2 will cause a long lasting erythema (Flower, R. J. et al (1976) Br. J. Pharmacol. 56, 229-233) and oedema formation (Soter, N. A. et al (1983) J. Invest. Dermatol. 80, 115-119), which is exactly what an insect sting will do to most people.
Additionally, apitoxins (bee venom) contain, as their most active ingredient, phospholipase A2, which activates the substrate for cyclooxygenase-3 thus producing lots of prostaglandins.
So, if you happen to be missing the cyclooxygenase-3 enzyme completely, or have really low levels of it, then Tylenol, aspirin etc will not be effective, and you will not be particularly susceptible to allergic reactions or inflammation, including those by insects. Or, maybe you have a modified version of the enzyme, which isn't likely to bind to certain inhibitors, and also doesn't produce much Prostaglandin D2.
Do you also feel that other allergens are not particularly effective, such as ant bites, hayfever or asthma? Do you feel an itch around the insect bite?
Edited by Doddy, : another hypothesis

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 06-12-2007 10:02 AM Percy has replied

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 Message 82 by Percy, posted 06-23-2007 8:53 AM Doddy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 82 of 86 (406987)
06-23-2007 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Doddy
06-23-2007 8:10 AM


Doddy writes:
Do you also feel that other allergens are not particularly effective, such as ant bites, hayfever or asthma? Do you feel an itch around the insect bite?
I've never had hayfever that I know of, and certainly not asthma. Any insect bites I get don't usually itch unless I get them on the back of a finger, and they seem to last a bit longer in that location, maybe an hour. I do recall the last bee sting I received. It didn't cause itch or pain, but there was a small bump for a couple days. Black fly bites are the worst, they cause a sizable bump and actually itch for a day or two.
I didn't understand the technical portion of your explanation, but I do have a question. Is any of this related to nerve enervation or muscular contraction?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Doddy, posted 06-23-2007 8:10 AM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Doddy, posted 06-23-2007 9:47 AM Percy has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 83 of 86 (406996)
06-23-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
06-23-2007 8:53 AM


Percy writes:
Is any of this related to nerve enervation or muscular contraction?
Not particularly. The majority of the technical portion of my post is concerned with the paracrine hormones (as opposed to endocrine hormones, which are distributed throughout the body after secretion, paracrine hormones are local in their effect), which link to the nervous system in that certain sets of these hormones, the prostaglandins, are responsible for noiception (their presence sensitizes the pain receptors).
Do you find aspirin works ok?
Edited by Doddy, : spelling

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Contributors needed for the following articles: Pleiotropy, Metabolism, Promoter, Invertebrate, Meiosis, DNA, Transcription, Chromosome, Tetrapod, Fossil, Phenotype, Messenger RNA, Mammals, Appendix , Variation, Selection, Gene, Gametogenesis, Homo erectus and others.
Registration not needed, but if desired, register here!

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 Message 82 by Percy, posted 06-23-2007 8:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 84 of 86 (407016)
06-23-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Doddy
06-23-2007 9:47 AM


Doddy writes:
Do you find aspirin works ok?
I've found that both aspirin and naproxen (Alleve) work great.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 85 of 86 (407022)
06-23-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by dwise1
06-22-2007 3:13 PM


dwise1 writes:
....one particularly dishonest creationist, Bill Morgan of http://www.fishdontwalk.com)....
I was struck by your opponent's choice of URL. If you come across him again, you could always score a small point by pointing out that some fish do actually walk. I like this little fellow:
http://www.arkive.org/...s/GES/fish/Brachionichthys_hirsutus
Those fins are virtually arms.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 86 of 86 (407034)
06-23-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by bluegenes
06-23-2007 1:26 PM


Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the snakeheads, walking catfish, and mudskippers.
He blocked off all communication when I kept calling him on a deliberate lie that he posted repeatedly on his websites, one which he has yet again posted in the meantime. My page about this is at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/q_ozone.html.

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