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Author Topic:   J.C.Sanford: Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 55 (393682)
04-06-2007 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CTD
04-05-2007 7:40 PM


How convincing is this book? Here's a link I found to an evolutionist in crisis. Read carefully: He's forced to categorize ALL mutations as beneficial in order to save his faith!
I read carefully. He says no such thing, you made that up.
I notice that you haven't told us what Sanford's wonderful new idea actually is, preferring, for some reason, to spout falsehoods about his critics.
And this book is so readable! Unable to fault the science, some critics put it down on this account. Don't you just love it!
I'm not sure I'm going to take your word for this.
Here's an overly simplified analogy of my own, so as not to steal from the author. Evolution can't make much progress taking 50 steps backward for every step forward.
And evolution does not take 50 steps backward for every step forward except in the imaginary made-up world in your head.
This all you've got?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CTD, posted 04-05-2007 7:40 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by CTD, posted 04-07-2007 6:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 55 (393683)
04-06-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by CTD
04-05-2007 9:19 PM


Re: Not to debate, but to clarify:
I'm still googling for responses to the actual science in the book, but I've had no success.
Possibly there is no actual science in the book?
If you think there is, you could post it here, and I'm sure you'll get a response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by CTD, posted 04-05-2007 9:19 PM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 55 (393686)
04-06-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CTD
04-05-2007 7:40 PM


Respected Cornell geneticist rejects Darwinism in his recent book – Uncommon Descent
Interesting.
Here's what he has to say about the theory of evolution:
Constantly mouthed mantra ... “sacred cow” ... faith alone ... extremely vulnerable ... essentially indefensible ... bluster, smoke, and mirrors ... mystical faith, which the true-believers have in the omnipotence of natural selection ... deep-seated faith in natural selection was typically coupled with a degree of ideological commitment - which can only be described as religious ... religion ... most definitely wrong ... most sacred of cows ... catastrophic ... the Emperor has no clothes!
And here, in full, is what he has to say about why he thinks the theory of evolution is wrong:
...
---
I was most interested to see him say that in the theory of evolution, natural selection is supposed to be "omnipotent". His qualifications preclude the excuse of ignorance: he is lying or insane.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CTD, posted 04-05-2007 7:40 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by CTD, posted 04-07-2007 7:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 55 (393828)
04-07-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by CTD
04-07-2007 6:54 AM


Ha! The link's there for all to see.
Yes, of course, and he does not, at any point, say that all mutations are beneficial. This is why you cannot quote him saying any such thing. This is something you made up in your head. It has no connection to the real world. You made that up.
The writer's meaning is clear: when mutations pile up, evolution advances. There's no race at all between constructive and destructive, and only a creationist would ever be so ignorant as to assert such a thing.
No, that is not what he says. This is something you made up in your head. This is why you can't quote him saying any such thing.
Oh yeah? Well I'm not going to take YOUR word that you aren't going to take my word, so there!
You're not going to take my word for what my opinions are?
What are you going to do?
Oh yeah, you're a creationist, you're going to fantasise and lie to me about my opinions without any reference to what I actually say.
50 to 1 is not a realistic ratio, if that's what you mean. But I don't have reason to believe anyone can formulate an argument that would convince you, including the names listed above.
So, you admit that your claim was "not realistic".
And instead of producing a claim which is accurate, you merely whine out an insulting innuendo that if you did, I wouldn't accept it.
But implying falsehoods about my hypothetical opinions in the case that you did something you're not able do do is not a substitute for doing it.
First, you should come up with a real argument against evolution which is based on facts, rather than numbers which you just made up in your head. If I then rejected your argument, then your contempt for me would be justified.
---
Now, my turn to ask a question. Why can't you think of any argument against us "evolutionists" without indulging in ludicrous and pathetic fantasies about us? Why can't you argue with real evolutionists, rather than the imaginary evolutionists who live in your head?
Could it be because you're ... wrong?
---
It was you, wasn't it, who invented bizarre libels about Louis Theroux as a substitute for doing the impossible and defending Fred Phelps?
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 55 (393829)
04-07-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by CTD
04-07-2007 7:28 AM


So you interpret "the theory of evolution" from his term "an almost mystical faith"?
No, I do not, which is, of course, why I never said any such thing, and why you had to make that up in your head.
I do, however, interpret the phrase "omnipotence of natural selection" as meaning "omnipotence of natural selection".
Twist that, if you can.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by CTD, posted 04-07-2007 7:28 AM CTD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brad McFall, posted 04-07-2007 3:25 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 55 (393831)
04-07-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by CTD
04-07-2007 6:03 AM


Due to copyrights & other issues, I'll not be publishing the book here. As I see it, Sanford is using accepted evolutionary formulae and models; and plugging in the numbers. Evolutionists have already obtained similar results. For example, he cites Dr. J.F. Crow 1997 {PNAS 94:8830-8386}. Crow maintained that harmful mutations are accumulating and fitness is declining. Sanford maintains that the selection model Crow applies to 'solve' the problem is "unrealistic".
Okay, I am having real trouble following your mental processes.
You say that Crow's model supports Sanford. Then you say that Crow has solved, or 'solved', the problem. Then you say that Crow's model is unrealistic.
It seems like you're trying to say that an unrealistic model which doesn't support Sanford supports Sanford.
That can't be what you're trying to say.
So what are you trying to say?
You tell me that "evolutionists" have got the same result as Sanford, you cite Crow as an example, and then you dismiss what Crow has actually written as being "unrealistic".
What is going on here?
I would tend to agree. If Crow's selection model (I haven't read it) is realistic, why isn't it solving the problem already?
What?
If you haven't read Crow's selection model, what makes you think that it isn't "solving the problem already"?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by CTD, posted 04-07-2007 6:03 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by CTD, posted 04-08-2007 4:33 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 55 (393837)
04-07-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by CTD
04-07-2007 10:01 AM


Re: up up and away!!!
If Sanford should succeed in merely disproving the "Primary Axiom", I should be satisfied to call his effort a success. In Appendix 5, Dr. Sanford considers the objection that evolution can get by without it.
And of course evolution does "get by" without taking Sanford's nutty straw man as an "axiom".
If you will quote me just one "evolutionist" who genuinely claims that this is the primary axiom of evolutionary theory then I shall apologise to Sanford and to you.
Until then, I say that since his training must have taught him what the theory of evolution actually says, he is either lying or insane. Or both. It's hard to tell with fundies.
---
I'll ask again. Why is it that you, why is it that he, why is it that every creationist is incapable of arguing with what competent biologists actually claim?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by CTD, posted 04-07-2007 10:01 AM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 55 (401476)
05-20-2007 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by CTD
04-08-2007 4:33 AM


So if I say that man is not merely the product of random mutations plus natural selection, you & the rest would not disagree?
No, of course not, which is why I said no such thing. You made that up.
What I did say is that what the liar calls the "Primary Axiom" of evolution is not an axiom, and by virtue of his training the liar must be aware of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by CTD, posted 04-08-2007 4:33 AM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 55 (401487)
05-20-2007 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by kartasik
05-18-2007 6:44 PM


Re: Dr. Sanford's book was easy reading
And from that to have found faults in Sanford’s book when he answered many of those faults in later chapters was very humorous.
For example? Which faults did he answer, and how?
”Could it be that Sanford twisted everything’ just because he is a Bible thumper? - or so suggested the great Averendo.
No he didn't. You made that up.
But he did not even begin to answer Sanford ...
You mean, apart from saying why he was wrong?
... and I doubt many institutions of learning will use this Blog for their answer to Sanford.
I doubt any institutions of learning will bother answering one more creationist making the same mistakes again. Why bother?
I have seen Dawkins use many of the same types of arguments to make the case for evolution as Sanford used to make against it.
Really. Quotations?
Averendo tried to insinuate that Sanford’s right to a religious belief has forever compromised his scientific abilities...
No he didn't you made that up.
... when in fact it is obvious that Averendo has his own preconceived religion - of a type - that forever bars him from truly judging Sanford fairly.
You owe me for a new irony meter.
First you pretend that Averendo has attacked Sandford on the basis of his religion, which he never does. Then you invent an imaginary religion for Averendo and attack him for it.
That's got as much class as a pimp dead-drunk in a gutter.
Having finished Sanford’s book I found Averendo’s pathetic attacks - some filled with personal innuendos ...
This is not true. You made that up.
In any event I do hope science does finally quit shying away from the credible assault Sanford made ...
He made a credible assault? Really? Please quote one of his credible arguments.
As for "shying away from it", there seems to be nothing new in is book, and scientists have published data showing that his arguments are wrong before he even adopted them.
... especially since it is mainly a series of quotes from dyed in the wool evolutionists - some quite recent by the way.
Oooh, quote-mining, that's original. Of course, none of these "dyed-in-the-wool evolutionists" intended their words to be read out of context as meaning that evolution was impossible.
I hope they don’t do what men like Dawkins loves to do - just fall into personality attacks and mud slinging.
He "loves to do" that? Really? Do you have quotations to back this claim up?
I do tire of science’s paranoia of the stupid Bible!! Certainly geology suffered massively because of this silly paranoia - resisting things like plate tectonics or asteroid created astroblems - simply because they were afraid of the terms ”large change’ or ”catastrophe’, and that because they feared the silly Bible.
This is not true. You made this up.
Based on the total lack of material or mechanical causation for how tree cells arrange themselves and alter their character -
Er ... this "total lack of material or mechanical causation" --- is that somehting you have evidence for, or something you just made up in your head?
I personally believe there will be discovered a universal substrate - no doubt built of other dimensions that will show that what we call intelligence is really just another force waiting to be discovered. We admit that our particles could be energy in another universe. Perhaps our entropy - information destruction - is an upward evolution in another universe as well, while the entropy in the other universe is upward evolution - ”information creation’ - in ours. Such a condition could appear in waves or in periodic surges.
"Today a young man realized that all matter is merely energy condensed through a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream and we are the imaginations of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by kartasik, posted 05-18-2007 6:44 PM kartasik has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 55 (401708)
05-21-2007 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by CTD
05-20-2007 8:25 PM


I'll tell you what's sophomoric: trying to pretend this is anything other than disagreement. I'm not fooled, how 'bout the rest? Anyone fooled by this stinking, rotten garbage? Does anyone believe for one instant that Jar does not disagree with my statement?
Who is "pretending" that jar is not disagreeing with you?
Come on! One of you known, habitual liars please claim that you are. Isn't that exactly what you're here for? I'm talking about you cats that anything you say on any topic, I don't even have to bother looking it up to know it's false. One of you slimes make Jar feel better and say you're deceived.
By what?
I could pity those here who are fighting for a lost cause...
I prefer to mock them, maybe it's just me.
Honestly, any child who gives a few minutes of thought to the issue can see that entropy's going to outpace natural selection.
I suppose a child might think that, if an adult told him this particular lie and he didn't know what "entropy" meant.
Dr. Sanford's done the math now...
Which, for some reason, you do not cite.
...using evolutionist's own formulas
I think you'll find that "evoutionist's own formulas" do not include any quantity measurable in joules per kelvin.
Men of character don't deal with such things by changing the subject or spouting lies.
The irony is strong with this one.
I know you folks and probabilities. Any odds can be overcome just by wishing hard enough, right?
Obviously none of us thinks that. Whom are you trying to fool?
I think I'll go now. Maybe check those links. Judging by Dr. A's denials, it's a safe bet what they said. "You just made that up" is not what most folks use as a synonym for "That's the fact, Jack!" or "Amen brother, tell it like it is!" But we're all individuals. I try to adjust.
This is barely coherent, but I believe that you're upset at the way I point out that made-up stuff is made up.
I'm glad you're trying to adjust to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by CTD, posted 05-20-2007 8:25 PM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 50 of 55 (402645)
05-29-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by CTD
05-29-2007 2:47 AM


Re: given a few minutes one can stop in an instant.
Information is usually thought of as being lost due to copying errors.
No. Genetic information is changed by copying errors.
Perhaps I should not have said entropy is going to outpace selection. It would be better to say it is outpacing it.
No, this is no better.
The word "entropy" has a meaning, and it does not mean "a magic word which makes creationists right".
We have more defects than we can count, and they're continually increasing.
Evidence?
On the other hand, we see no evolution among humans or any other living things.
Er ... yes we do.
Evolutionists (the less truth-averse variety, at any rate) are always saying the reason we can't see evolution is because it works so slowly.
No. This is why you cannot quote any evolutionist saying that "we can't see evolution".
Our genes aren't deteriorating slowly; it can be seen from one generation to the next. It has been seen, and measured.
By whom? Where is this published? What are the units in which "deterioration" is measured?
The only way around it is blind faith that some undetected force will somehow dictate that evolution wins the race.
The only way around what? You've produced no evidence for your barely-coherent assertions, you've just said a lot of stuff.
You would also notice, if you weren't so fond of lying about your opponents, that none of us has blind faith, nor even well founded belief, in some "undiscovered force" that makes evolution work. We know how evolution works.
Don't hold your breath waiting for them to actually get around to Dr. Sanford's science.
I'm still holding my breath waiting for you to post some of Dr Sandford's science. Or any science.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by CTD, posted 05-29-2007 2:47 AM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 51 of 55 (402675)
05-29-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by CTD
05-20-2007 9:07 PM


Dr. Sanford's argument is not that there are no beneficial mutations. He mentions this ...
Ricardo Azevedo (from the link):
At the end of the previous installment I began examining Sanford's arguments as to why "random mutations are never good".
Are his own words sufficient evidence that he did indeed say that? We'll see.
Presumably, when Azevedo quotes Sandford as saying that "random mutations are never good", he is quoting the part where, as you admit, Sandford "mentions" that there are no beneficial mutations.
The arguments are mischaracterized further, and the author seems content to resort to the familiar "straw man" theme.
If Sandford says, as you have admitted, that there are no beneficial mutations, then disagreeing with this is not attacking a straw man.
Even if I were setting out to deceive someone, I'd try to do a quality job of it.
Not on your present showing.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by CTD, posted 05-20-2007 9:07 PM CTD has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 55 of 55 (403490)
06-03-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by CTD
06-03-2007 8:25 AM


I see it may bear repeating that Dr. Sanford gives evolution every benefit of the doubt in his models.
Which you still refuse to share with us for some mysterious reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by CTD, posted 06-03-2007 8:25 AM CTD has not replied

  
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