For Salty

Actually, salty has made a return in response to SLPx new thread in the evolution forum. SLPx has indicated that salty has either not actally read some of references he continuously quotes or has distorted them. Salty's response has been..well, typical..go off topic, insult, hero worship etc.However, I have tried to make him aware of this thread.He claims he will be hibernating in the future...perhaps he can get boo boo to steal the rangers picnic basket while he is at it?

Hello?This thing on?

I rather dislike posting to "Free For All" topics, but this seemed to be the place for it...{Added by edit: The reason I'm posting this, it that, in Salty topics past, there was some huhbub over what is a "Darwinist"}Something I just stumbled onto at Talk Origins (not the Terry one).http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/anti-darwin.htmlThis paper has an outline of a definition of what Darwinism is, and a listing of alternate evolutionary theories.Also, alternatives to Darwinism are listed (and discussed) there:

quote:

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Special creationism (sometimes just "Creationism" [5], the view that species are created "specially" in each case): challenges 1, 2, 6 and usually 8. Examples: the last biologist to be a special creationist was Louis Agassis (d. 1873) [6].

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Orthogenesis (linear evolution, aka Great Chain of Being thinking, the view that evolution proceeds in direct lines to goals, also sometimes called teleological evolution or progressionism): challenges 8 and 9. Examples: Lamarck, Ngeli, Eimer, Osborn, Severtsov, Teilhard. Often found as vague statements in more orthodox biology (in terms like "primitive" and "advanced" forms instead of the usual meanings in biology of older and derived) [7].

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Neo-Lamarckism (aka Instructionism, the view that the environment instructs the genome, and/or the view that changes occur to anticipate the needs of the organism): challenges 7b, 8 and 9. Examples: Darwin, Haeckel, ED Cope, S Butler, Kropotkin, GBS Shaw, Kammerer, Koestler, E Steele [8], Goldschmidt [9]

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Process Structuralism (aka Formalism, aka Laws of growth tradition, also called Naturphilosophie, deriving from Goethe and Oken - the view that there are deep laws of change that determine some or all of the features of organisms): challenges 3 to 5 and 10. Examples: Goethe, Geoffroy, D'Arcy Thompson [10] , Goodwin, Salthe, Gould, Lvtrup [11]

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Saltationism (in texts before about 1940 also called "Mutationism" or "Mutation Theory", the view that changes between forms occur all-at-once or not at all): challenges 11, and sometimes 2. Examples: Galton, TH Huxley, De Vries, TH Morgan, Johannsen, Goldschmidt [12]

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All that, and more there.Moose------------------
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
My big page of Creation/Evolution Links[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 05-07-2003]

Great post Moose.
I think that salty (though he never defined it) has a more esoteric definition of Darwinism. It may be somewhat like Symansu's.Both of them define it as "evil" because it is an unguided process and somehow that makes it immoral....to be honest, from salty's manifesto it is hard to really glean what he means by Darwinsim. It would seem to me as follows,mutation/selection/ and drift have nothing to do with evolution.
Chromosomal rearrangements during meiosis produce novel species within a single generation which reproduce asexually until a population exists and then resume sexual reproduction to weed out the defective individuals. (sort of a combo of process structuralism and saltationism from your list.) Finally, the entire process is designed and guided by a special force or creator which he claims is obvious.To not accept his view in his opinion is immoral.Symansu has a similar idea in that he equates Darwinism and natural selection with social Darwinism as proposed by Galton which was based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of fitness (and which Darwin did not accept). This type of thought equated wealth and other social status attributes of the late 1800's of the elite as representing higher fitness. Galton and his followers were dismayed by the relatively larger size of families of the poor which they felt were swamping out the "more fit" elite...the resultant ideology that developed from this thinking was the eugenics movement...Symansu thus equates Darwinism with eugenics and particularly that practiced by the nazi's.Long ago Tokyojim made a similar argument but added that nobody could say Galton was wrong because it was all faith and not science.Thus, Darwinism to these guys is seen as a social construct and not the scientific defintion at Talk Origins. I think they are not unique in viewing it as such which is why there are so many posts where creationists equate evolution with religion.I personally find Darwinism a fairly useless and vague term because it can and has been defined in so many different ways.cheers
M

M if you had read the manifesto you would realize I already had summed it up. Check the section on the evidence from cytology. I didn't expect you to go to the library. Heaven forbid. Why must you describe yourself as a moron? I'm sure you are at least a cut above that. saltyM: However, you made a sweeping statement about cytology not agreeing with sexual reproduction and evolution. What specifically are you referring to? You are way to vague....I doubt you would appreciate it if in support of one of my points I referred you to Molecular Biology and Evolution vol 11 which contains 12 issues, probably 100 papers, on all sorts of varied subjects. If you could sum it up in the manifesto (whatever the specific point is) then please sum it up for the benefit of myself and anyone else lurking. Thanks in advance.cheers,
M

Intellectual pussy?Pussy?I like what rapper Ice T says about that word:"Power it starts with P like pussy"

Always been one of my favorite words.Sort of like calling someone 'gay.' It may offend some homosexuals to see the word used in a derogatory sense, but it really offends the homophobe/latent homosexual being called it...

Retired Service | The University of VermontNot only is he our resident semi-meiotic academic wonder...with your vote (assuming you are from Vermont) he could be governor

Apparently he wanted to run in 2002 or thereabouts, but the good people of Vermont were too sensible to have him on the ballot.If you want an insight to the psychology of your man, you should have a look at this one ...Retired Service | The University of VermontI felt I shold cut-and-paste so you could read it here, but in truth, you get a fuller flavour from the full context. There is a certain bathos to lines like Here is another example of the power of the Burlington Free Press.

Let's sample a bit shall we?"Let me bring you up to date on my political situation. First I didn't get
the requisite (1000) signatures, only about 700. Early in September I had
two rallies, one on the second and a second on the sixteenth. I notified
well in advance all the Newspapers in Vermont of both rallies and sent
flyers as well. Not one paper published the events in their calendars. I
guess I am a little too conservative for the Vermont press. To paraphrase
Hillory Clinton, it would seem that "I am the victim of a vast left-wing
conspiracy". I am confident that if those rallies had been publicized I
would have the needed signatures to put me on the ballot. As it is I will
be a write-in candidate. Don't misunderstand me, I will continue to campaign
for the 2002 election. Quitters never win and winners never quit! "First off, does the quote mining sound familiar?
Second, paranoia i.e. people would take semi-meiosis seriously but Gould, Dawkins, Provine, and the entire EvC forum Darwinist Groupthinkers are holding me down.Third, how did he get even one signature much less 700????? and where can I find these people so that I can sell them some prime real estate in former east Germany cheers,
M

Grasse and Broom would have voted for him, you know.

And the debates would have been like a long drive through a landscape painted by Dali.

"Look at them meanie old guys over there. Over here , we is all nice to each other. Unless, of course, you are not a YEC cultist... Then we warn you and goad you.
Or unless you are Ilion - you know, the guy that trolls and gets his ass whupped' - or gets ignored - every time he tries to really discuss something at ARN? Yeah, then you can do what you want. Never mind that I am too much of an intellectual coward to actually try to discuss anything at a board where i do not have "moderation" power - I mean, them meanie guys might point out how ignorant I am or sumpthin'..."As for our "supposed" victories - I guess Terry Trainor really is just plain stupid, for if he actually thinks that salty held his own here at all, well, that says it all....

Terry Trainor writes, in response to the latest whinign by senile Out-of-date Davison

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I am reminded of that saying about why you should not teach a pig to sing.

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1. You cannot succeed.
2. It makes the pig mad.

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Terry

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I am reminded of a simple reality.
You should not try to talk science on a creationist-run discussion board.1. It is like talking ot a brick wall.
2. The brick wall will simply delete your posts, threaten to ban you, spread idiotic lies about you, and when backed into a corner that their little pea brains cannot find an AiG link to save themselves with, will tell you that you are going to Hell for not being a simple-minded nitwit like them.Isn't that clever, Worm?[This message has been edited by SLPx, 05-13-2003]

Davison's whining is most comical.In fact, some fairly crazy people did get on the ballot.Take "Mom" for instance. I forget her name off the top of my head, but she has been on the ballot several times, the Free Press has published her platform, and I have had the smug pleasure of seeing her utterly humiliated on a TV debate.She calls herself "Mom," you see. Her platform is, among other things, that a combination of prayer and Native american healing arts will rid the state of homosexuals, abortion, drug use,and a list of things that, doubtless, Davison is against also (he recently made some implicit homophobic comments at the Wrom's - I am so shocked!). If I remember correctly, 2 years ago when she ran she also wanted to exeute people for all sorts of things. Really bizarre.That SHE was on the ballot really says something about salty...And a suppression campaign by the Free Press or the Tims Argus ain't it. They both listed "Mom's" blather...