Evangelical Support Group

While I won't disagree with the flavor of that statement, the issue is: What is "Scripture"?I have always found it humorous that many people will swear on the Bible and proclaim it to be "Inspired Word of God" yet few will spend any effort understanding the origin and history of the "Holy Bible".Phat quoted a source that used Timothy and Corinthians as some sort of internal self-referential proof of the divinity of the Bible. The references to 2 Timothy is very weak (the Corinthians reference doesn't even apply). There has been much discussion and debate on the non-specific meaning of the original Greek words used for scripture (PASA GRAFH) in Timothy - why be so vague on such a vital and important issue?My overarching point is that God did not in any clear way identify what is to be considered Canon or even more importantly if there should be a Canon.The concept of Canon is purely a human inspired concept and process!If God modified several laws of physics to create a rainbow and make the Sun go backwards as a sign, why not some sign on the very critical issue of a Canon?One last point. If the Holy Spirit is real, why the need for a Canon? It seems that the need to formulate, promote and enforce a Canon may be a fundamental statement on the weakness or nonexistence of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit can inspire why does this Spirit require some supposed Godly works?Separate issue... First I ask why would God require worship or oblation? Really. One of the more detestable aspects of human rulers, leaders and celebrities is the craving and need for worship and oblation.To attribute this base human behavior to God is clearly a sign of the anthropomorphizing of God. This is simply archaic and is a common feature of most primitive religions. I have heard of contemporary evangelical Christian Kids Camps that scare vulnerable kids into the loving arms of Jesus by frightening them with the eternal fires of Hell.

Jar writes:

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So your first source is at best being willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest.

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NJ writes

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I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.

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Jar replies

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That is yet another characteristic of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. They see anyone that actually asks questions about their beliefs as hostile.

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It is starting to be a bit much jar. Phat, as NJ says, shares his belief and you accuse him of "willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest". Intentionally dishonesty translates into lying.NJ calls you on it and you say accuse Phat of being part of the Christian Culture if Ignorance and of being hostile to anyone who disagrees. There is only one person in this discussion who's being hostile and it ain't Phat and it ain't NJ.Labelling and name calling doesn't make a very effective argument, and I haven't read the guidelines lately, but isn’t accusing people of lying against the rules of this forum.

All you can do is test it against reality, the world you live in. The source is simply projected, we can not really know the source.But the source is irrelevant. It is the validity of the testing that is important.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please actually read what I write. I said that Phat's source is likely lying. I specifically said Willfully Ignorant. If that term offends some, I'm sorry but it is an honest evaluation of what they do. Cult, not even culture.Again, please read what I write. I said that the people in the Christian Cult of Ignorance see any who simply asks why they believe something, who asks for the reasoning behind their beliefs, as hostility. I'm sorry if your feathers get ruffled, but I actually supplied the reasoning behind my statements which is something the Christian Cult of Ignorance does not do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How would you know either way if Scripture can't be trusted in the first place? You can't have it both ways. That's probably true seeing that the Bible is a collection of books/scrolls. That they all harmonize is one of the very reasons why most in the Judeo-Christian community believe that it is God-breathed. Define, "evolving" in this sense? And under what presumption do you have esoteric knowledge of this? How could you presume to know that inspired writings can't exist, or any inspiration from God at all, for that matter, and refer to yourself as a Christian?

• If God is unknowable, then how do you know Him/believe in Him?

• If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, but don't believe the veracity of Scripture, then how have you deduced He is who He claimed to be?

You just cinched your own noose. If Scriptures can't be trusted and God is unknowable then by what other avenue have you come to believe in Jesus? Can you clarify what factual matters the author, Phat, and I or wrong on?

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I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.

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Making slanderous remarks about Phat, or anyone else for that matter, is making a statement, not asking a question. Again, why are you being so hostile to Phat, of all people? From my vantage point, I see Phat logically defending his faith, whereas, you are making innumerable logical fallacies by bouncing around between incongruent thoughts. You should be careful of the stones you throw.

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"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

Let's stop and look at the points.It is impossible for the passages to refer to the Bible, the Bible did not exist at the time of their writing, no Bible existed for several hundreds of years AFTER those passages were written, and even today there is no single identifiable "Bible", rather there are several canons each containing different collections of writings.Sorry, those are all facts. LOL.Where did I say inspired writing can't exist?See, that is part of the problem in the Christian Cult of Ignorance. It appears that the members are unable to read what is actually written.then you asked the two nonsense questions: There is a difference between "knowing" and "believing". I can believe in GOD while acknowledging that the most I can ever know of GOD while living is the Map that I create. I can also believe but must in honesty acknowledge that it is but a belief and I might well be wrong.The second question can be addressed this way. While I believe that Jesus actually existed and the stories told of him have some basis in truth, it is unimportant whether in fact they are true. Further, I have never said that there was not some lessons to be learned from Scripture, what I said is the the passages quoted do not refer to the Bible. I believe that all Scripture is inspired, including Alice through the Looking Glass, Archy and Mehitabel, Mysterious Stranger and particularly, Pogo.BUT, the fact is still that the passages do not refer to "The Bible" which does not even exist today. Again, if the shoe fits, wear it. I have tried to be quite clear as in this response to outline why I use the term Christian Cult of Ignorance. I speak out to Phat in the hope of saving his immortal soul, in hope that I can get him to actually think about the quotes such as he used to support his position.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Phat made the same comment earlier. I often hear this statement and wonder what is the source for such an opinion. The evidence is counter.

You are saved by works; No you are saved by faith. (difference on this issue has spawned dozens of "spirit filled" churches)

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Love your enemies; Kill and destroy your enemies but keep the young virgin girls for yourselves

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God is mercy; Show no mercy do not spare the little children or the pregnant women.

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God loves little children; How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones!

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God of peace; God is a man of war and the Lord is his name.

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Jesus is the prince of peace; Jesus says did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

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God does not change his mind; God relents.

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God is omnipotent and knows the future exhaustively; The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth

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God is not a God of confusion; The Lord confused the language of the whole earth (because evidently God who created nebula 50 light years across was threaten by a unified world)

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In a more global sense, key fundamental concepts such and heaven/hell and salvation *evolve* over the course of time.

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For example, salvation in the OT is typically within the context of deliverance from physical oppression, famine or death. In the New Testament salvation is from eternal suffering and damnation in the lake of fire.

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In addition, in the OT what little is mentioned concerning eternal salvation is clearly within the context of the "Men Only" club.

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For example Ezekiel it is mentioned that "soul that sinneth, it shall die" (notice no hell). Now how do you gain righteousness and live? Well there is a list of male oriented items including:

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Exekiel 18:16 writes:

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... neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

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This is excluding women from salvation. Compare to Paul "neither male nor female" statement.

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Key concepts evolve without much notice by those who claim the harmony of the scriptures.

After reading this topic and going over the points that some of you have made, I am concluding that we have a real humdinger going here! Thank you all for making this topic entertaining as well as informative! We have 200 more posts to go, so lets not quit thinking just yet! Perhaps the challenge issued by my other evangelical friends is to be unafraid to question my beliefs at any and all levels. Good question! Lets focus on that word, know.

To perceive directly. ---I can say that I perceive God directly, but it may well be wishful thinking. I suppose it would be similar to how I perceive any of you. The difference is that I perceive you through written interactions on a computer screen. I perceive God more through mental interactions in my mind.

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to be acquainted or familiar with--- I talk to God every day and believe that I hear His responses...either through others or through those feelings in my mind and heart.

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to be aware of the truth of---While most fundamentalists would cite the Bible as the guideline for being aware of the truth of God, I can allow myself to step away from that presupposition for the sake of this argument.

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nemesis, speaking to jar writes:

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I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.(...)From my vantage point, I see Phat logically defending his faith, whereas, you are making innumerable logical fallacies by bouncing around between incongruent thoughts. You should be careful of the stones you throw.

Nemesis, you have to understand the context within which Jar was raised.

Jar,in his belief statement writes:

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Life at a boarding school was amazing. For the first time in my life I was immersed in a culture where everyone was as smart as me and most far smarter. No one, not students, not faculty accepted anything simply on belief. They challenged everything. And that challenge was pervasive.

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In Sacred Studies we had to build the case for theism, to prove that GOD did exist. Once we could defend that our arguments were torn to shreds and we had to build the case for atheism, that GOD did not exist. In turn, those arguments were challenged and refuted.

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The discussions with the other kids were the most challenging. The Masters were often Socratic, asking questions to get YOU to think. The other boarders though gave no slack, took no prisoners. You either supported your position or it was toast. It wasn’t important what the position was, no one cared whether or not you agreed with them, but by GOD you better be able to support what YOU believed.

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It is good to have my beliefs challenged, but I get irritated at times when I actually have to think! Jar has little patience for fundamentalists and he could be a little nicer, like Ringo and Truthlover are! I still accept him as a brother In Christ, although for the life of me I never see him describing his own relationship with God to us very often. (Jar? Ball in your court! )

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iceage writes:

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My overarching point is that God did not in any clear way identify what is to be considered Canon or even more importantly if there should be a Canon.

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The concept of Canon is purely a human inspired concept and process!

If so, how can we know or understand God if, in fact, there is no revealed word?

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iceage writes:

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One last point. If the Holy Spirit is real, why the need for a Canon?

To extrapolate even further, why the need for a religion? We then circle back to the question of how and whether we know that it is God or the Holy Spirit speaking to us through others or whether it is some "other" spirit. (assuming such a reality exists)

iceage writes:

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First I ask why would God require worship or oblation? Really. One of the more detestable aspects of human rulers, leaders and celebrities is the craving and need for worship and oblation.

Its the obedience that is required. Worship is for our benefit rather than for Gods benefit. Its like having discipline in the army. Drill sergeants don't bark orders for their own ego. They do it to ensure that the soldiers learn to survive under pressure.

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Jar writes:

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The source is simply projected, we can not really know the source.

NIV writes:

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Matt 22:37-39--"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Can we love someone whom we do not know?

Jar writes:

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But the source is irrelevant. It is the validity of the testing that is important.

So the test is whether we can love our neighbor as ourself, right?

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Jar writes:

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I said that the people in the Christian Cult of Ignorance see any who simply asks why they believe something, who asks for the reasoning behind their beliefs, as hostility.

It all boils down to whether you see and feel your opponent in a debate to be of the enemy or simply a tool of God to make your belief stronger and better defined!

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Edited by Phat, : spelling

Thats quite an accusation! Do you honestly think that so many Christians would willfully lie? If so, this world is in a bigger spiritual war than I thought!

God's Word... The only real issue is not what Scripture is, but rather, what constitutes scripture. And anyone asking how and why the biblical canon should be more important than, say, the Vedas or Qur'an is asking a legitimate question.Is that what you are really asking? That's very understandable. There are a lot of people who make assumptions about the Bible, simply because they've heard over the years the Bible is the Word of God, rather than investigating it for themselves. I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why there isn't a higher emphasis placed on the Greek manuscripts? If so, I would say a tremendous amount of emphasis is placed on both the Hebrew and Greek lexicon. For instance, I own an exhaustive concordance that gives us the exact meaning of the respective English translation, so as to not lose the original intent by being lost in translation. Jesus did for the Old Testament. He said, in no uncertain terms, that the Scriptures come from God. But as for the NT, we have to examine how and why there ever was the need for a council. Looking at the gnostic texts from the canonized scriptures makes itself evident which is from the will of human imagination and which survives today only at the will of God. Which you can only believe if you don't believe that God imparts wisdom to those who search for Him in sincerity. "Because a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign. But none will be given." -Matthew 12:39 The Holy Spirit isn't an on demand function that can be turned on and off like a light switch. It comes upon the believer at His behest, not ours. All believers go through periods of silence from God, which sometimes is a clear indication of our lack of communion with Him. If you were to meet the Ruach HaKodesh you would know that trying to summarize it in quaint, formatted points is pretty much impossible. Its nothing that can be adequately described in words. Phat knows what I'm talking about. And throughout this thread he has been referring to those intimate and precious few moments with God where he is in communion with God. That's the kind of meeting that erases all doubt.So, for the people that have yet to meet with the Spirit, do they not guidance in the meantime? Is that not what the Scriptures are for? Yes, human rulers. Because of corruption. God is the only real thing worthy of any true worship. But how can you ask me why God would seek a relationship, worship, and reverence? How am I supposed to answer that? Its as cryptic as asking why He chose to make man in the flesh at all, rather than in Spirit as He and angelic beings are. That is a question I am simply not equipped to answer.

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No one actually becomes an effective evangelist by preaching fire and brimstone.

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I've heard critics say that they compel the kids to feel repentant about their sins.

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"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

Rob, lets get back to our fundamental discussion. If you get the idea that I have sold out and am compromising in this thread, I assure you that this is not the case. I still believe that there is a spiritual war. Let me ask you some questions, however.

How do we know who is knowingly or unknowingly of the enemy and who is knowingly or unknowingly of God?

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How do we know that the Bible is true? Is it because we were told that it was? Is it because the Holy Spirit tells us that it is, confirming through testing scripture against worldly knowledge?

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Do you think that allowing yourself to question your own beliefs is tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

I didn't say there was no revealed word.I am questioning the concept of Biblical Canonization which everyone gets hung up on and consequently derive all sorts of bad theology. I am questioning that the Bible is somehow ordained by God and all other extrabiblical works are pale by comparison. For what ever reason God has never given a clear sign - the evidence provide so far is weak, if not ludicrous. As Jar said "that is a fact".To shed some light here is an analogy that I came across that might elucidated the error of Canonization. (OBTW if this is too off topic maybe I should make this new topic, let me know)Two set of engineering teams are tasked to create an autopilot to fly an airplane from LA to NY.

The first team, the canonical team, decide to use very precise devices to measure the vehicles position, velocity and acceleration at a given point of time. They take this data and calculate the exact necessary position of the control surfaces (ailerons, rudder and elevator) in order to navigate the plane to NY. The engineers and pilot have great faith in the measurements and so they set the control surfaces to a fixed (canonized) position. These engineers remain steadfast in their measurements/calculations and refuse to allow anyone to question them regardless of changing conditions. With an air of certitude they retire to first class for a gin and tonic for there remainder of the flight.

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The second team, the feedback/filter team, take a different approach. They decide to put less faith on earlier measurements and take a new measurement every minute or so. The still use earlier measurements in their calculations but factor in the new measurements, this smooths out the data. They also apply a coefficient of confidence on certain measurements depending on the perceived accuracy of the source. This process is called filtering. Now based on this, they periodically adjust the control surfaces accordingly and remain vigilant. These engineers freely admit that at any given time they are never *exactly* on the right course, but they know by correcting for errors and folding in new information they are generally heading in the right direction.

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Which plane do you want to fly in....

I would agree actually that scripture did evolve. It is the ongoing story of God and His creation. The Hebrew stories or mythologies stand out in stark contrast to the Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythologies that co-existed. Whereas the other mythologies told of gods in incestuous and murderous relationships the Hebrew stories told of a God who created and then gave mankind a moral code. The OT gave us the ten commandments as well as the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself.Why does this one mythology stand out so starkly against the mythologies of their more advanced neighbours of that era. It is my opinion that the reason is because the Hebrew mythologies were actually God inspired. Does this mean that the OT scriptures should be read as a completely accurate historical account? I would say no, but that we can learn a great deal about God and what it is that he wants us to learn.In the NT Jesus comes (as the actual Word of God), and fulfils the OT. He even went further than the OT when He told us to love our enemies. Jesus was a first century Jew whose land was occupied by the Romans. The majority of Jews were looking for a Messiah who would defeat Roman and restore the temple to its former glory. Jesus however said that wasn't the way to go and showed them another way. Matthew was a Jew who functioned as a tax collector for the Romans. He wasn't on anyone's list for Happy Hanukkah cards. Jesus loved him and made a disciple out of him.I believe that the Bible is to be read with wisdom. It is also to be read within the context of the time in which it was written. In the Gospels it is imperative to remember that Jesus was talking to first century Jews. It was after the resurrection that He told his disciples to take that message and spread it to the rest of the world. I humbly suggest that those that believe the Bible is to be read strictly literally are short-changing themselves because I believe that the Bible is richer than that, but I also suggest that those who reject the Bible altogether are missing out even more.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

If you're choosing up spiritual sides, how do you know you're on the "right" side? If one leader says, "I always tell the truth and my enemy always lies," how do you know he's telling the truth?During the Russian revolution, my grandmother's cousin was drafted by the Red Army - and promptly deserted the first chance he got. He didn't choose the cause, nor did he choose to fight against it.Have you really chosen a side? Does either side "need" you?

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Keep reading Matthew and he goes on to explain "HOW" you love GOD.You do not love GOD by worship, or praise or belief. You love GOD by what you do, and by what you don't do.It really is that simple. That is part of it. You also test the lessons against reason and logic, you look at the lessons and ask questions, such as "What does this say about God?"The problem was that the people you quoted were either very ignorant, totally deluded or lying. I examined what they said and presented you the reasons they were wrong.When you or I make a mistake, it could well just be ignorance, but when someone in a position of authority speaking from a position of authority says things that are patently and obviously false, or patently and obviously encouraging willful ignorance, then it looks like just flat lying.The quotes you provided failed the test against reality and honesty. The term Scripture in the passages can not refer to the Bible since a Bible did not exist until hundreds of years later. In fact, even today there is no one "Bible" but rather many different Canons specifying different contents for "The Bible".And to say that there is no error or conflict is you can conceive of any way around contradictions is simply insulting. All it says is that if you can make up anyway around the problem then the problem is not there.That is willful ignorance. There is no other possible description. Why would I, it is totally irrelevant. That seems to be yet another characteristic of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, that spoken Testimony is of any value what so ever.Mt relationship with GOD is between me and GOD. It is of no value or relevance to anyone else.If I did tell you, I would hope you would ask "How do you know it was GOD?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion