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Author | Topic: Evangelical Support Group | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6165 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
NJ writes: I agree with Phat that Scripture is the standard to strive for While I won't disagree with the flavor of that statement, the issue is: What is "Scripture"? I have always found it humorous that many people will swear on the Bible and proclaim it to be "Inspired Word of God" yet few will spend any effort understanding the origin and history of the "Holy Bible". Phat quoted a source that used Timothy and Corinthians as some sort of internal self-referential proof of the divinity of the Bible. The references to 2 Timothy is very weak (the Corinthians reference doesn't even apply). There has been much discussion and debate on the non-specific meaning of the original Greek words used for scripture (PASA GRAFH) in Timothy - why be so vague on such a vital and important issue? My overarching point is that God did not in any clear way identify what is to be considered Canon or even more importantly if there should be a Canon. The concept of Canon is purely a human inspired concept and process! If God modified several laws of physics to create a rainbow and make the Sun go backwards as a sign, why not some sign on the very critical issue of a Canon? One last point. If the Holy Spirit is real, why the need for a Canon? It seems that the need to formulate, promote and enforce a Canon may be a fundamental statement on the weakness or nonexistence of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit can inspire why does this Spirit require some supposed Godly works? Separate issue...
NJ writes: I don't believe the threat of punishment ever brings anyone to God simply because that's not worship or oblation. First I ask why would God require worship or oblation? Really. One of the more detestable aspects of human rulers, leaders and celebrities is the craving and need for worship and oblation. To attribute this base human behavior to God is clearly a sign of the anthropomorphizing of God. This is simply archaic and is a common feature of most primitive religions.
NJ writes: No one actually becomes an effective evangelist by preaching fire and brimstone. I have heard of contemporary evangelical Christian Kids Camps that scare vulnerable kids into the loving arms of Jesus by frightening them with the eternal fires of Hell.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Jar writes:
quote: NJ writes
quote: Jar replies
quote: It is starting to be a bit much jar. Phat, as NJ says, shares his belief and you accuse him of "willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest". Intentionally dishonesty translates into lying. NJ calls you on it and you say accuse Phat of being part of the Christian Culture if Ignorance and of being hostile to anyone who disagrees. There is only one person in this discussion who's being hostile and it ain't Phat and it ain't NJ. Labelling and name calling doesn't make a very effective argument, and I haven't read the guidelines lately, but isn’t accusing people of lying against the rules of this forum.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How do you know when a writing is inspired? What is the source of the inspiration?(in your opinion or belief) All you can do is test it against reality, the world you live in. The source is simply projected, we can not really know the source. But the source is irrelevant. It is the validity of the testing that is important. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Please actually read what I write. I said that Phat's source is likely lying.
It is starting to be a bit much jar. Phat, as NJ says, shares his belief and you accuse him of "willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest". Intentionally dishonesty translates into lying. I specifically said Willfully Ignorant. If that term offends some, I'm sorry but it is an honest evaluation of what they do.
NJ calls you on it and you say accuse Phat of being part of the Christian Culture if Ignorance and of being hostile to anyone who disagrees. There is only one person in this discussion who's being hostile and it ain't Phat and it ain't NJ. Cult, not even culture. Again, please read what I write. I said that the people in the Christian Cult of Ignorance see any who simply asks why they believe something, who asks for the reasoning behind their beliefs, as hostility.
Labelling and name calling doesn't make a very effective argument, and I haven't read the guidelines lately, but isn’t accusing people of lying against the rules of this forum. I'm sorry if your feathers get ruffled, but I actually supplied the reasoning behind my statements which is something the Christian Cult of Ignorance does not do. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
The point is that the term Scripture in those passages does NOT refer to the Bible. How would you know either way if Scripture can't be trusted in the first place? You can't have it both ways.
Nothing like a Bibles existed at the time they were written. That's probably true seeing that the Bible is a collection of books/scrolls. That they all harmonize is one of the very reasons why most in the Judeo-Christian community believe that it is God-breathed.
Even the Tanakh was still evolving through the first century CE. Define, "evolving" in this sense? And under what presumption do you have esoteric knowledge of this?
Scripture is referring to ALL inspired writings, not to the Bible which just plain didn't exist. How could you presume to know that inspired writings can't exist, or any inspiration from God at all, for that matter, and refer to yourself as a Christian?
You just cinched your own noose. If Scriptures can't be trusted and God is unknowable then by what other avenue have you come to believe in Jesus?
The issue is that the author of the supporting quotes Phat provided was demonstrably wrong, wrong on very basic factual matters just as you are wrong on the very same grounds. Can you clarify what factual matters the author, Phat, and I or wrong on?
quote: That is yet another characteristic of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. They see anyone that actually asks questions about their beliefs as hostile. Making slanderous remarks about Phat, or anyone else for that matter, is making a statement, not asking a question. Again, why are you being so hostile to Phat, of all people?
Is it because their beliefs really have no foundation and so they are unable to explain why they hold them? From my vantage point, I see Phat logically defending his faith, whereas, you are making innumerable logical fallacies by bouncing around between incongruent thoughts. You should be careful of the stones you throw. "God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Let's stop and look at the points.
It is impossible for the passages to refer to the Bible, the Bible did not exist at the time of their writing, no Bible existed for several hundreds of years AFTER those passages were written, and even today there is no single identifiable "Bible", rather there are several canons each containing different collections of writings. Sorry, those are all facts.
How could you presume to know that inspired writings can't exist, or any inspiration from God at all, for that matter, and refer to yourself as a Christian? LOL. Where did I say inspired writing can't exist? See, that is part of the problem in the Christian Cult of Ignorance. It appears that the members are unable to read what is actually written. then you asked the two nonsense questions:
* If God is unknowable, then how do you know Him/believe in Him? * If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, but don't believe the veracity of Scripture, then how have you deduced He is who He claimed to be? There is a difference between "knowing" and "believing". I can believe in GOD while acknowledging that the most I can ever know of GOD while living is the Map that I create. I can also believe but must in honesty acknowledge that it is but a belief and I might well be wrong. The second question can be addressed this way. While I believe that Jesus actually existed and the stories told of him have some basis in truth, it is unimportant whether in fact they are true. Further, I have never said that there was not some lessons to be learned from Scripture, what I said is the the passages quoted do not refer to the Bible. I believe that all Scripture is inspired, including Alice through the Looking Glass, Archy and Mehitabel, Mysterious Stranger and particularly, Pogo. BUT, the fact is still that the passages do not refer to "The Bible" which does not even exist today.
Making slanderous remarks about Phat, or anyone else for that matter, is making a statement, not asking a question. Again, why are you being so hostile to Phat, of all people? Again, if the shoe fits, wear it. I have tried to be quite clear as in this response to outline why I use the term Christian Cult of Ignorance. I speak out to Phat in the hope of saving his immortal soul, in hope that I can get him to actually think about the quotes such as he used to support his position. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6165 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
NJ writes: That they all harmonize is one of the very reasons why most in the Judeo-Christian community believe that it is God-breathed. Phat made the same comment earlier. I often hear this statement and wonder what is the source for such an opinion. The evidence is counter.
In a more global sense, key fundamental concepts such and heaven/hell and salvation *evolve* over the course of time. For example, salvation in the OT is typically within the context of deliverance from physical oppression, famine or death. In the New Testament salvation is from eternal suffering and damnation in the lake of fire. In addition, in the OT what little is mentioned concerning eternal salvation is clearly within the context of the "Men Only" club. For example Ezekiel it is mentioned that "soul that sinneth, it shall die" (notice no hell). Now how do you gain righteousness and live? Well there is a list of male oriented items including:
Exekiel 18:16 writes: ... neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, This is excluding women from salvation. Compare to Paul "neither male nor female" statement. Key concepts evolve without much notice by those who claim the harmony of the scriptures.
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
After reading this topic and going over the points that some of you have made, I am concluding that we have a real humdinger going here! Thank you all for making this topic entertaining as well as informative! We have 200 more posts to go, so lets not quit thinking just yet!
Perhaps the challenge issued by my other evangelical friends is to be unafraid to question my beliefs at any and all levels. Jar writes: Good question! Lets focus on that word, know.
So again, the question stands until answered, "How would I know it is GOD?" Websters writes:
know knew known know”ing 1 : to perceive directly : have understanding or direct cognition of; also : to recognize the nature of 2 : to be acquainted or familiar with 3 : to be aware of the truth of 4 : to have a practical understanding of ” know”able adj ” know”er n ” in the know : possessing confidential information nemesis, speaking to jar writes:
Nemesis, you have to understand the context within which Jar was raised.
I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.(...)From my vantage point, I see Phat logically defending his faith, whereas, you are making innumerable logical fallacies by bouncing around between incongruent thoughts. You should be careful of the stones you throw.Jar,in his belief statement writes: Life at a boarding school was amazing. For the first time in my life I was immersed in a culture where everyone was as smart as me and most far smarter. No one, not students, not faculty accepted anything simply on belief. They challenged everything. And that challenge was pervasive. In Sacred Studies we had to build the case for theism, to prove that GOD did exist. Once we could defend that our arguments were torn to shreds and we had to build the case for atheism, that GOD did not exist. In turn, those arguments were challenged and refuted. The discussions with the other kids were the most challenging. The Masters were often Socratic, asking questions to get YOU to think. The other boarders though gave no slack, took no prisoners. You either supported your position or it was toast. It wasn’t important what the position was, no one cared whether or not you agreed with them, but by GOD you better be able to support what YOU believed. It is good to have my beliefs challenged, but I get irritated at times when I actually have to think! Jar has little patience for fundamentalists and he could be a little nicer, like Ringo and Truthlover are! I still accept him as a brother In Christ, although for the life of me I never see him describing his own relationship with God to us very often. (Jar? Ball in your court! )
iceage writes: If so, how can we know or understand God if, in fact, there is no revealed word?
My overarching point is that God did not in any clear way identify what is to be considered Canon or even more importantly if there should be a Canon. The concept of Canon is purely a human inspired concept and process! iceage writes: To extrapolate even further, why the need for a religion? We then circle back to the question of how and whether we know that it is God or the Holy Spirit speaking to us through others or whether it is some "other" spirit. (assuming such a reality exists)
One last point. If the Holy Spirit is real, why the need for a Canon? iceage writes: Its the obedience that is required. Worship is for our benefit rather than for Gods benefit. Its like having discipline in the army. Drill sergeants don't bark orders for their own ego. They do it to ensure that the soldiers learn to survive under pressure.
First I ask why would God require worship or oblation? Really. One of the more detestable aspects of human rulers, leaders and celebrities is the craving and need for worship and oblation. Jar writes: The source is simply projected, we can not really know the source.NIV writes: Can we love someone whom we do not know?
Matt 22:37-39--"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'Jar writes: So the test is whether we can love our neighbor as ourself, right?
But the source is irrelevant. It is the validity of the testing that is important. Jar writes: It all boils down to whether you see and feel your opponent in a debate to be of the enemy or simply a tool of God to make your belief stronger and better defined! I said that the people in the Christian Cult of Ignorance see any who simply asks why they believe something, who asks for the reasoning behind their beliefs, as hostility. Edited by Phat, : spelling
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Jar writes: Thats quite an accusation! Do you honestly think that so many Christians would willfully lie? If so, this world is in a bigger spiritual war than I thought!
I said that Phat's source is likely lying.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
While I won't disagree with the flavor of that statement, the issue is: What is "Scripture"? God's Word... The only real issue is not what Scripture is, but rather, what constitutes scripture. And anyone asking how and why the biblical canon should be more important than, say, the Vedas or Qur'an is asking a legitimate question. Is that what you are really asking?
I have always found it humorous that many people will swear on the Bible and proclaim it to be "Inspired Word of God" yet few will spend any effort understanding the origin and history of the "Holy Bible". That's very understandable. There are a lot of people who make assumptions about the Bible, simply because they've heard over the years the Bible is the Word of God, rather than investigating it for themselves.
Phat quoted a source that used Timothy and Corinthians as some sort of internal self-referential proof of the divinity of the Bible. The references to 2 Timothy is very weak (the Corinthians reference doesn't even apply). There has been much discussion and debate on the non-specific meaning of the original Greek words used for scripture (PASA GRAFH) in Timothy - why be so vague on such a vital and important issue? I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why there isn't a higher emphasis placed on the Greek manuscripts? If so, I would say a tremendous amount of emphasis is placed on both the Hebrew and Greek lexicon. For instance, I own an exhaustive concordance that gives us the exact meaning of the respective English translation, so as to not lose the original intent by being lost in translation.
My overarching point is that God did not in any clear way identify what is to be considered Canon or even more importantly if there should be a Canon. Jesus did for the Old Testament. He said, in no uncertain terms, that the Scriptures come from God. But as for the NT, we have to examine how and why there ever was the need for a council. Looking at the gnostic texts from the canonized scriptures makes itself evident which is from the will of human imagination and which survives today only at the will of God.
The concept of Canon is purely a human inspired concept and process! Which you can only believe if you don't believe that God imparts wisdom to those who search for Him in sincerity.
If God modified several laws of physics to create a rainbow and make the Sun go backwards as a sign, why not some sign on the very critical issue of a Canon? "Because a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign. But none will be given." -Matthew 12:39
One last point. If the Holy Spirit is real, why the need for a Canon? The Holy Spirit isn't an on demand function that can be turned on and off like a light switch. It comes upon the believer at His behest, not ours. All believers go through periods of silence from God, which sometimes is a clear indication of our lack of communion with Him.
It seems that the need to formulate, promote and enforce a Canon may be a fundamental statement on the weakness or nonexistence of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit can inspire why does this Spirit require some supposed Godly works? If you were to meet the Ruach HaKodesh you would know that trying to summarize it in quaint, formatted points is pretty much impossible. Its nothing that can be adequately described in words. Phat knows what I'm talking about. And throughout this thread he has been referring to those intimate and precious few moments with God where he is in communion with God. That's the kind of meeting that erases all doubt. So, for the people that have yet to meet with the Spirit, do they not guidance in the meantime? Is that not what the Scriptures are for?
First I ask why would God require worship or oblation? Really. One of the more detestable aspects of human rulers, leaders and celebrities is the craving and need for worship and oblation. Yes, human rulers. Because of corruption. God is the only real thing worthy of any true worship. But how can you ask me why God would seek a relationship, worship, and reverence? How am I supposed to answer that? Its as cryptic as asking why He chose to make man in the flesh at all, rather than in Spirit as He and angelic beings are. That is a question I am simply not equipped to answer.
quote: I have heard of contemporary evangelical Christian Kids Camps that scare vulnerable kids into the loving arms of Jesus by frightening them with the eternal fires of Hell. I've heard critics say that they compel the kids to feel repentant about their sins. "God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Rob, lets get back to our fundamental discussion. If you get the idea that I have sold out and am compromising in this thread, I assure you that this is not the case. I still believe that there is a spiritual war. Let me ask you some questions, however.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 6165 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Phat writes: If so, how can we know or understand God if, in fact, there is no revealed word? I didn't say there was no revealed word. I am questioning the concept of Biblical Canonization which everyone gets hung up on and consequently derive all sorts of bad theology. I am questioning that the Bible is somehow ordained by God and all other extrabiblical works are pale by comparison. For what ever reason God has never given a clear sign - the evidence provide so far is weak, if not ludicrous. As Jar said "that is a fact". To shed some light here is an analogy that I came across that might elucidated the error of Canonization. (OBTW if this is too off topic maybe I should make this new topic, let me know) Two set of engineering teams are tasked to create an autopilot to fly an airplane from LA to NY.
Which plane do you want to fly in....
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
iceage writes: Key concepts evolve without much notice by those who claim the harmony of the scriptures. I would agree actually that scripture did evolve. It is the ongoing story of God and His creation. The Hebrew stories or mythologies stand out in stark contrast to the Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythologies that co-existed. Whereas the other mythologies told of gods in incestuous and murderous relationships the Hebrew stories told of a God who created and then gave mankind a moral code. The OT gave us the ten commandments as well as the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself. Why does this one mythology stand out so starkly against the mythologies of their more advanced neighbours of that era. It is my opinion that the reason is because the Hebrew mythologies were actually God inspired. Does this mean that the OT scriptures should be read as a completely accurate historical account? I would say no, but that we can learn a great deal about God and what it is that he wants us to learn. In the NT Jesus comes (as the actual Word of God), and fulfils the OT. He even went further than the OT when He told us to love our enemies. Jesus was a first century Jew whose land was occupied by the Romans. The majority of Jews were looking for a Messiah who would defeat Roman and restore the temple to its former glory. Jesus however said that wasn't the way to go and showed them another way. Matthew was a Jew who functioned as a tax collector for the Romans. He wasn't on anyone's list for Happy Hanukkah cards. Jesus loved him and made a disciple out of him. I believe that the Bible is to be read with wisdom. It is also to be read within the context of the time in which it was written. In the Gospels it is imperative to remember that Jesus was talking to first century Jews. It was after the resurrection that He told his disciples to take that message and spread it to the rest of the world. I humbly suggest that those that believe the Bible is to be read strictly literally are short-changing themselves because I believe that the Bible is richer than that, but I also suggest that those who reject the Bible altogether are missing out even more. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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ringo Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Do you honestly think that so many Christians would willfully lie? If so, this world is in a bigger spiritual war than I thought! If you're choosing up spiritual sides, how do you know you're on the "right" side? If one leader says, "I always tell the truth and my enemy always lies," how do you know he's telling the truth? During the Russian revolution, my grandmother's cousin was drafted by the Red Army - and promptly deserted the first chance he got. He didn't choose the cause, nor did he choose to fight against it. Have you really chosen a side? Does either side "need" you? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Keep reading Matthew and he goes on to explain "HOW" you love GOD.
You do not love GOD by worship, or praise or belief. You love GOD by what you do, and by what you don't do. It really is that simple.
So the test is whether we can love our neighbor as ourself, right? That is part of it. You also test the lessons against reason and logic, you look at the lessons and ask questions, such as "What does this say about God?" The problem was that the people you quoted were either very ignorant, totally deluded or lying. I examined what they said and presented you the reasons they were wrong. When you or I make a mistake, it could well just be ignorance, but when someone in a position of authority speaking from a position of authority says things that are patently and obviously false, or patently and obviously encouraging willful ignorance, then it looks like just flat lying. The quotes you provided failed the test against reality and honesty. The term Scripture in the passages can not refer to the Bible since a Bible did not exist until hundreds of years later. In fact, even today there is no one "Bible" but rather many different Canons specifying different contents for "The Bible". And to say that there is no error or conflict is you can conceive of any way around contradictions is simply insulting. All it says is that if you can make up anyway around the problem then the problem is not there. That is willful ignorance. There is no other possible description.
I still accept him as a brother In Christ, although for the life of me I never see him describing his own relationship with God to us very often. (Jar? Ball in your court! ) Why would I, it is totally irrelevant. That seems to be yet another characteristic of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, that spoken Testimony is of any value what so ever. Mt relationship with GOD is between me and GOD. It is of no value or relevance to anyone else. If I did tell you, I would hope you would ask "How do you know it was GOD?" Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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