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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 18640
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 76 of 331 (398542)
05-01-2007 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
04-30-2007 5:37 PM


Cheap Trick
was that Cheap Trick, Nator?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 04-30-2007 5:37 PM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18640
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 77 of 331 (398545)
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Ringo writes:
What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?
I would actually consider this to be potentially true. The enemy has no power that we humans don't give him. While it is comfortable for me to believe in a spiritual war, (and Biblical) and while I have asked those of a more rational mind to consider the possibility that one actually exists, it is only fair in the name of mutual respect for me to consider the possibility that there really is no devil and that there really is no need to worship the word for word literalism of the Holy Bible.
Ringo writes:
Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?
Of course not. What I am suggesting is that God foreknew that humans would never grow up so much that they outgrew their need of Him. I am because He Is.
iceage writes:
Maybe God cares more about your personal musings and attempts to understand than your willingness to believe some packaged ideology. Maybe if we are going to be condemned, God is going to condemn us on the lack of trying, or the willingness to be seduced by the "salvation for the price of a bumper sticker" theology.
I have often thought similar to what you just said. Maybe God is not so concerned that people believe that the Bible is literal and true as He is that people have done the best that they can. (Jars philosophies have caused me to think, after all! The liberal Anglicans are surely not of the devil! )
iceage writes:
Be careful of hero worship.
I have learned that lesson already. I think that I have lumped the whole mindset of science into a category that I sub label as human wisdom and go out of my way not to blindly follow the obviousness of rational thought.
Admittedly, it is scary to respect my fellow humans who do not believe in God as literally as I do.
Rob reminds me that the enemy can use them to deceive me. My response to that is that if there actually is a literal supernatural spiritual war on the planet, this enemy is going to also use my own like-minded church against me. Bottom line: who can I trust? While the obvious answer is God, as He reveals Himself to me through the Holy Spirit I also need to take another Leap Of Faith and be unafraid to trust those of you who may even be atheists and unbelievers. That really throws a wrench in the devils schemes, doesn't it?
Nator writes:
Don't confuse integrity with charisma or conviction.
A valid warning! See? You don't seem that devilish to me!
Jar writes:
Timothy and Corinthians cannot refer to the Bible because no such thing existed at the time they were speaking.
No, but they very well could refer to the Holy Spirit speaking through human personalities. People did not need the book. What they needed and still need, IMB, is the Spirit and the personal character of God behind the book!
Jar writes:
How would I know it is GOD?
Oh thats right...you seem to think that God is unknowable. Perhaps I am too quick to assume that I understand Him, but it could well be that you are too quick to continually question and test whether or not you actually believe in Him.
Jar writes:
I have said that the lessons can be tested and if they are true, it does not matter if the story is.
Jesus told Pilate that He was truth. Apart from that standard, what standard do we use to test the lessons as to validity. Let me turn your question back on you....when you study something "spiritual" written by another human author, how do you know that you are studying the right map to the right territory? IMB, the reality of a personal relationship with God is not some hodgepodge mystical journey into esoteric questioning.
Jar writes:
It would be nice if GOD didn't really expect YOU to actually have to do it.
I know that I am a spoiled child in regards to my relationship with God. Human kids are expected to grow up so as to not need their parents. I do not believe that we are expected to grow up and not need communion in a practical non ritualistic sense, however. Communion is more than some church ritual or symbol. Communion is the daily reality of conversation with God and prayer. IMB we all could partake in it a bit more often.
GDR writes:
Communion, is among other things a reminder that we are called to take the focus off of ourselves and to do as God commanded, by loving Him and our neighbours. It simply replaces the barbaric with something that is in no way barbaric.
I agree wholeheartedly. I am gonna have to look up those links that you referred to, and I do appreciate the input.

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6102 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 78 of 331 (398547)
05-01-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
04-29-2007 11:52 AM


Re: Groupthink
Phat:
That quote by Lewis is interesting, and gives one pause to think. I would respond, however, by saying that one thing that turns many critical thinkers and scientists off to organized religion and specifically our brand of Christianity is the very lack of thinking skills many of us exhibit! They would probably be willing to overlook the foolish theological beliefs that they claim we got through dogma and not through revelation IF they could otherwise trust and receive us as individuals. (otherwise sane, in other words!)
With all due respect, I think you have some bas assumptions in there.
Jesus made it clear that they are more than willing to accept us as individuals (coming in our own name), but will not accept us coming in His name. We are no threat to them. It is God (as revealed by the Holy sciptures) whom they despise. They have their own God, created in their own image. So it is Christ they reject.
Joh 5:43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
As for the thinking skills, I agree in part. The church has abandoned the battle intellectually in large part. And this is strange, since we are told very clearly to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
I have never had the energy or inclination to study. But mysteriously, after my converison I developed such a thirst for God's word that I have no doubt as to where the power and energy to feed that hunger originates. This has extended to much extrabiblical literature as well, particularly in the area of philosophy and theology. I am still very much a layman, but have found the thinking to be thoroughly superior to what our detractors deem as their own sound wisdom.
It doesn't matter if it turns them off Phat. We cannot alter God's Word so as to make it more appealing. That would be akin to outcome based education.
They cannot hear the truth because they are not honest. Consider what I said to sidelined in our great debate:
Jesus said to Pilot, '... everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'
That is an astounding statement, and He intended it to be an absolute as were many of his comments. And without question, my favorite Christian philosopher, summed up Jesus' words astutely:
"In any interplay between a person and information, the first test, is not the veracity of the information, but the honesty of the person."
(Ravi Zacharius)
Their hearts are corrupt Phat. And if your heart is corrupt, and my heart is corrupt, then how much more corrupt is the heart of a man who will not even admit his duplicity in the first place, so as to begin retraining.
You and I are bieng transformed. We die daily, and it is hard. They will not even accept the premise! They will not hear it because of their dishonesty. That is why Jesus said, "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father the devil..."
Phat:
(Or is Jar right and they are a bunch of con-men? After all, ya gotta admit that many so-called preachers are!! )
I cannot understand why you give jar any credit at all. Talk about con-men. So yes, many are. And I just named one.
Phat:
If you really want to reach those whom you believe need reaching here, you will have to build relationships with them, get to know how and why they think the way that they do, and stop calling them "the enemy"! In other words, I agree with what you just told me!
We cannot reach them. And the Bible is full of warnings about it. I thought the same when I first came here. But I discovered I was carrying my own name and seeking the praise of men.
But I have learned alot about myself and my own motivations. This experience has strengthened me tremendously.
I still think you have a problem with rejection. And if you do not stand in the face of persecution, the Bible makes it plain that you do not have the Spirit, which is the only power capable of pulling us through that fire. Not saying that is the case, but you better read your Bible more, and spend less time here. If you ask me, your buddy jar is a master deceiver. The consumate example of a false convert. The manifestation of the worst and clever qualities of antichrist. But he has never fooled me. I am incredibly suprised that you cannot see that.
If we throw our pearls to swine and do not wipe the dust off our feet at some point, they will devour us. Because our love for them has surpassed our love of God. It's a sick and twisted game of spiritual abuse puncuated by symapthy that is dealt with well in C.S. Lewis' book, 'The Great Divorce'.
Don't forget that at some point we are to hand them over to the devil... Grace is never to sacrifice justice in the process.
I have the advantage of being in a truck for many hours a week. I can listen to many great preachers and listen to all kinds of CD's including the Bible. I would fall if it wasn't for that, because the spiritual battle is much much more powerful than I, if I am relying on my own wisdom.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 04-29-2007 11:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 331 (398549)
05-01-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phaticus writes:
I would actually consider this to be potentially true. The enemy has no power that we humans don't give him. While it is comfortable for me to believe in a spiritual war, (and Biblical) and while I have asked those of a more rational mind to consider the possibility that one actually exists, it is only fair in the name of mutual respect for me to consider the possibility that there really is no devil and that there really is no need to worship the word for word literalism of the Holy Bible.
So, you fully admit that these Gods and goblins are all in your head, yet continue to worship them for the shits and giggles?
Of course not. What I am suggesting is that God foreknew that humans would never grow up so much that they outgrew their need of Him. I am because He Is.
So many people grow up and no longer depend on their parents for everything. Perhaps that cycle of life was put there by God to let you know that you need to eventually break free from the dependence.
I know that I am a spoiled child in regards to my relationship with God. Human kids are expected to grow up so as to not need their parents. I do not believe that we are expected to grow up and not need communion in a practical non ritualistic sense, however. Communion is more than some church ritual or symbol. Communion is the daily reality of conversation with God and prayer. IMB we all could partake in it a bit more often.
What part of praying and having a conversation requires that you rely on God for everything, and expect the poor ol' Fella to bail you out every damn time you go under? Don't you think it would be better to walk with God into Heaven; not cling to his leg as He drags you across the floor?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 331 (398550)
05-01-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
While it is comfortable for me to believe in a spiritual war....
You're more willing than most evangelicals to admit that your beliefs are based on "comfort". But comfortable beliefs, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, are not very satisfying when you grow up. Believing that Big Daddy will protect you from the bogeyman isn't much different.
You also take comfort in the "belief" that God doesn't want you to grow up. But the "need for communion" isn't about staying a child forever. You can have your communion with God without depending on Him to change your diapers.
Unfortunately, the idea of an "evangelical support group" seems to be to reinforce your comfy-cozy pajamas-with-feet complacency.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 9:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 11:03 AM ringo has replied
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 6:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18640
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 81 of 331 (398552)
05-01-2007 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
05-01-2007 10:44 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Ringo writes:
You also take comfort in the "belief" that God doesn't want you to grow up.
Not at all. I am only saying that unlike human children, I believe that God does not want us to be independent.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 665 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 331 (398553)
05-01-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
05-01-2007 11:03 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
You also take comfort in the "belief" that God doesn't want you to grow up.
Not at all. I am only saying that unlike human children, I believe that God does not want us to be independent.
It's the same thing. Growing up means becoming independent.
We come back to the "needy God" question: Why would God want you to be dependent on Him?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6223
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 83 of 331 (398554)
05-01-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
05-01-2007 11:03 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
Not at all. I am only saying that unlike human children, I believe that God does not want us to be independent.
I have to disagree with that Phat. I contend that God does want us to be independent. When I accepted the Christian faith I felt far more independent than I had previously.
My children are all independent adults but I don't care any less for them and I still care very much that they make the right choices. God never takes away our free will. If I get a phone call from my kids asking for advice, (it actually happens, go figure), I don't tell them to get lost but I do what I can. They can take what advice I give or do something completely the opposite. It is their choice. Isn't that how you experience God. We have another dimension to our choices that non-believers don't have.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18640
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 84 of 331 (398557)
05-01-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rob
05-01-2007 10:16 AM


Re: Groupthink
Rob writes:
I cannot understand why you give jar any credit at all.
Well, if God could use a donkey to restrain the madness of the prophet, why could He not use an Episcopalian curmudgeon to restrain the madness of a fundie? I don't agree with all of jars beliefs, but I think it irrational to dismiss him as a tool of Satan.
As for you, I think you are at your best when trying to understand Gods word. When you go off trying to be a philosopher and redefiner of accepted logic, you stray too far from the source, however.

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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 331 (398558)
05-01-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
jar writes:
Timothy and Corinthians cannot refer to the Bible because no such thing existed at the time they were speaking.
To which Phat responded:
quote:
No, but they very well could refer to the Holy Spirit speaking through human personalities. People did not need the book. What they needed and still need, IMB, is the Spirit and the personal character of God behind the book!
No, not really. There you go using the old "Make up any conceivable excuse" tactic. Read the passages. They are talking about "Scripture" in the part we are discussing. They also talk about teachings but that is irrelevant to the question of what they mean by "Scripture".
The question was in reference to the assertions in the belief statement, and they are simply false.
jar writes:
How would I know it is GOD?
to which Phat replied:
quote:
Oh thats right...you seem to think that God is unknowable. Perhaps I am too quick to assume that I understand Him, but it could well be that you are too quick to continually question and test whether or not you actually believe in Him.
Again, just a non-anser. No where in that do you explain "How you would know it is GOD?"
So again, the question stands until answered, "How would I know it is GOD?"
jar writes:
I have said that the lessons can be tested and if they are true, it does not matter if the story is.
To which Phat responded:
quote:
Jesus told Pilate that He was truth. Apart from that standard, what standard do we use to test the lessons as to validity. Let me turn your question back on you....when you study something "spiritual" written by another human author, how do you know that you are studying the right map to the right territory? IMB, the reality of a personal relationship with God is not some hodgepodge mystical journey into esoteric questioning
That again is not an answer, just an assertion with no support.
You test against the world we live in, Phat. There is no other possible test unless you can provide one, and so far all you have done is try to misdirect the readers attention and palm the pea.
jar writes:
It would be nice if GOD didn't really expect YOU to actually have to do it.
to which Phat replied:
quote:
I know that I am a spoiled child in regards to my relationship with God. Human kids are expected to grow up so as to not need their parents. I do not believe that we are expected to grow up and not need communion in a practical non ritualistic sense, however. Communion is more than some church ritual or symbol. Communion is the daily reality of conversation with God and prayer. IMB we all could partake in it a bit more often.
Sorry, all you are saying there is that you do not want to grow up. That's understandable, it's nice not to have to take responsibility for your actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5395 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 86 of 331 (398566)
05-01-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


Encounters with God
Phat wrote:
Have you ever had a personal encounter with God? Are you saying that because you have or have not, I must fall into your paradigm and world view for how things are? None of us have experienced the same things in our lives.
Encounters with God aren't that rare. I've certainly encountered, on an intimate and transcendant level, that which I consider the ultimate reality, the all, etc. It's funny that those raised Hindu interpret this to support Hinduism, those raised Muslim interpret this to support Islam, and those here in the Christianity-saturated culture of America often interpret that to support Christianity - in fact, to usually support their brand of Christianity.
Encountering God in no way suggests that the Bible is anything but a human work, any more than your encounter with God proves the Qu'ran, or my encounter with God proves, say Aurelius' "Meditations".
May your mind soar like the eagle-

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 331 (398567)
05-01-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by iceage
04-30-2007 4:59 PM


Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
Phat writes:
quote:
But without some sort of standard through which to relate to God, all we have is individual musings and opinions.
Without a scripture to back up a belief, all we have is one more opinion.
Iceage writes:
In my way of thinking, that is evidently the way God intended it be as God gave no clear sign that any particular scripture is divine. When one rests on the authority of the Bible's "musings" they are merely resting on the "opinion" of others.
Even with the Bible as the "standard" humans are still able to substantiate beliefs that are widely divergent.
Maybe God cares more about your personal musings and attempts to understand than your willingness to believe some packaged ideology.
I agree with Phat that Scripture is the standard to strive for, even if it is altogether unattainable. At the same time, I firmly believe that Scripture by itself has no power unless there is actual human experience to juxtapose. That would entail us all to live out our lives, experiencing human joy and pain.
Without our own experiences, separate from Scriptures, the Scriptures would make no sense to us and would render itself ineffectual. It would be ambiguous. Its like reading about joy or suffering are meaningless definitions without firsthand experience in which we could sympathize with and to relate to.
So, in a sense, I agree with both of you. I have no doubt that God requires us to live out lives chock full of both joy and suffering in order to give life to the Scriptures themselves. And the more I think about its depth, the more I am in awe of the sheer genius of His design.
Maybe if we are going to be condemned, God is going to condemn us on the lack of trying, or the willingness to be seduced by the "salvation for the price of a bumper sticker" theology. Maybe God is going to reward those who engendered kindness without the promise of reward or threat of punishment.
I don't believe the threat of punishment ever brings anyone to God simply because that's not worship or oblation. No one actually becomes an effective evangelist by preaching fire and brimstone. We simply would become mindless automatons living dreary lives of quiet desperation.
Besides, one would have to first believe in God in order for them to feel that an actual threat of hell were imminent or even possible. I know I certainly didn't believe in God because of the threat of anathema. My belief in perdition came after the fact.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typos

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by iceage, posted 04-30-2007 4:59 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 05-01-2007 2:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 331 (398569)
05-01-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
04-30-2007 5:56 PM


Hostility and judgementalism
Nothing in the Bible says that the Bible is inspired or without error. Sorry, that is NOT an opinion, that is fact.
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." -2nd Timothy 3:16-17
"Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came”and the Scripture cannot be broken” what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." -John 10:34-38
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not one jot, or one tittle, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Matthew 5:17-18
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." -Matthew 24:35
So your first source is at best being willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest.
I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.

"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 5:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 05-01-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 331 (398573)
05-01-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hyroglyphx
05-01-2007 1:22 PM


Re: Hostility and judgementalism
The point is that the term Scripture in those passages does NOT refer to the Bible. Nothing like a Bibles existed at the time they were written.
It really is very simple.
Even the Tanakh was still evolving through the first century CE.
Scripture is referring to ALL inspired writings, not to the Bible which just plain didn't exist.
AbE:
The issue is that the author of the supporting quotes Phat provided was demonstrably wrong, wrong on very basic factual matters just as you are wrong on the very same grounds.
I'm not sure why you are being so hostile with Phat seeing that he is simply sharing his beliefs on the matter. He's not saying anything that should illicit such a response from you.
That is yet another characteristic of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. They see anyone that actually asks questions about their beliefs as hostile.
Is it because their beliefs really have no foundation and so they are unable to explain why they hold them?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-01-2007 1:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 92 by GDR, posted 05-01-2007 2:53 PM jar has replied
 Message 95 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-01-2007 3:30 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18640
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 90 of 331 (398574)
05-01-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
05-01-2007 1:47 PM


May The Source Be with You
Jar writes:
Scripture is referring to ALL inspired writings, not to the Bible which just plain didn't exist.
How do you know when a writing is inspired? What is the source of the inspiration?(in your opinion or belief)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 05-01-2007 1:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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