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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 331 (398406)
04-30-2007 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
04-30-2007 3:33 PM


Human attempts to understand God
Jar writes:
It is an exhortation to continue learning and to look critically at EVERYTHING presented. It is basically saying, "Be all you can be!"
Did it ever occur to you that your inclination to know everything may just be the very thing keeping you from knowing God?
Knowing Jesus is knowing God.
...able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
You yourself have said that it matters not if Jesus was actually a real person if the stories and lessons themselves were true. (Right?) The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 3:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 62 of 331 (398408)
04-30-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
04-30-2007 4:09 PM


Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
quote:
A literalist always begins their world view with scripture and attempts to reconcile everything else through that lens.
In my experience this is not true. They start with the dogma of their church or even their own opinions and force scripture to fit. The Bible is more an excuse to put words in God's mouth than anything with real value in itself.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 331 (398409)
04-30-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
04-30-2007 12:40 PM


Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
Jar writes:
There actually is searching and questioning going on in "contemporary Christianity" and I would be more than happy to point you towards such sources.
I would be happy to see some links. I will honestly read what is written and offer up my beliefs in response to them. I will not accept the label of willful ignorance, however, because I do not think that you, Spong, Hawking, or anyone else has a better understanding of God than I do. Perhaps I am guilty of arrogance in this regard, however. Live and learn!

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 64 of 331 (398410)
04-30-2007 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
04-30-2007 4:09 PM


Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
Phat writes:
perhaps because they see everything ever written as human philosophy and trust that this book is somehow a reliable and accurate source of wisdom.
Phat, that is a good way of putting it.
However, it is my point is that the marks and stains of human philosophy ans psychology (albeit archaic) are readily apparent in this collection of works called the Bible. I think it is a intellectually lazy to accept that it is "Holy" because the cover of the book says it is and someone wearing the authority of clergy vestments attest to it.
Phat writes:
For the purposes of this topic, however, the belief statement stands as the map through which we explore a vast virgin spirituality within our collective minds.
Oh yea. Thanks for the gentle reminder. Sorry, I got carried away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:32 PM iceage has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 65 of 331 (398412)
04-30-2007 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
04-30-2007 3:33 PM


Re: Don't dismantle the belief statement through critical analysis
I've heard Doc Bill argue that the word in Timothy is graphe, meaning all things written.
This would seem to say that all writings are useful for learning.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 331 (398414)
04-30-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by iceage
04-30-2007 4:24 PM


Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
iceage writes:
I think it is a intellectually lazy to accept that it is "Holy" because the cover of the book says it is and someone wearing the authority of clergy vestments attest to it.
But without some sort of standard through which to relate to God, all we have is individual musings and opinions.
Without a scripture to back up a belief, all we have is one more opinion.
Without a belief in some explanation, all we are left with is endless questions and a search for One whom we already believe that we know!
Oh well...at least I have an idea in my mind and heart who it is that I am praying to! And as has been pointed out, IF He exists, it matters not what we believe. Some points, however:
  • Has God made any attempts at communication and interaction with humanity? (Individually speaking, I say yes!) If so, will there ever be a consensus or should there be one? Can the sum conclusion of humanity even begin to describe a universal Creator?
  • One reason that I trust those conservative Bible scholars is because I have personally met a few and can see integrity within them.
    A perfect answer is more appealing to me than an unresolved question.
    Maybe my critics see that as part of my problem.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by iceage, posted 04-30-2007 4:24 PM iceage has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 67 of 331 (398416)
    04-30-2007 4:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:11 PM


    Re: Human attempts to understand God
    Phat writes:
    The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.
    What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?
    What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to?
    Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:11 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 68 of 331 (398417)
    04-30-2007 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:32 PM


    Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
    Phat writes:
    But without some sort of standard through which to relate to God, all we have is individual musings and opinions.
    Without a scripture to back up a belief, all we have is one more opinion.
    In my way of thinking, that is evidently the way God intended it be as God gave no clear sign that any particular scripture is divine. When one rests on the authority of the Bible's "musings" they are merely resting on the "opinion" of others.
    Even with the Bible as the "standard" humans are still able to substantiate beliefs that are widely divergent.
    Maybe God cares more about your personal musings and attempts to understand than your willingness to believe some packaged ideology. Maybe if we are going to be condemned, God is going to condemn us on the lack of trying, or the willingness to be seduced by the "salvation for the price of a bumper sticker" theology. Maybe God is going to reward those who engendered kindness without the promise of reward or threat of punishment.
    phat writes:
    One reason that I trust those conservative Bible scholars is because I have personally met a few and can see integrity within them.
    Be careful of hero worship. We are all susceptible, I know I am.

    This message is a reply to:
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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 69 of 331 (398424)
    04-30-2007 5:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:20 PM


    Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
    quote:
    because I do not think that you, Spong, Hawking, or anyone else has a better understanding of God than I do.
    So if everybody has an equal understanding of God, then everybody must be equally right when they make claims about what God likes or dislikes.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    (2)
    Message 70 of 331 (398426)
    04-30-2007 5:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
    04-30-2007 4:54 PM


    Re: Human attempts to understand God
    quote:
    Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?
    I want you to want me.
    I need you to need me.
    Id love you to love me.
    Im beggin you to beg me.
    I want you to want me.
    I need you to need me.
    Id love you to love me.
    Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
    Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.
    Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
    Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
    Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
    Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

    This message is a reply to:
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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 71 of 331 (398427)
    04-30-2007 5:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:32 PM


    Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
    quote:
    One reason that I trust those conservative Bible scholars is because I have personally met a few and can see integrity within them.
    You can't "see" someone's integrity.
    Integrity is something that is demonstrated over time, and mostly through adversity.
    Integrity is doing what you say you will do, even when it isn't easy or convenient.
    Don't confuse integrity with charisma or conviction.
    quote:
    A perfect answer is more appealing to me than an unresolved question.
    Maybe my critics see that as part of my problem.
    It is human nature to avoid uncertainty, but settling on an answer to a question merely to relieve our emotional discomfort seems a poor way to find truth.
    Edited by nator, : No reason given.

    'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy
    "What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell
    "Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov
    "We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
    ...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory

    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 72 of 331 (398431)
    04-30-2007 5:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:09 PM


    Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
    let me start with the sub-title that you added to your message; "Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge".
    That is a silly statement with inane worth at best, and far more likely simply a false one. As written, it makes no sense. Ignorance does not presupose anything accept that something is unknown. In addition, willful ignorance can be positively identified as I will try to do in the next few paragraphs.
    I had said, referring to the statement of your sources in Message 47...
    If you actually read the supporting assertions you posted all they say is that if you are willfully ignorant you will not find problems.
    That seems to upset you, but if we actually parse what you quoted, I believe I can show that is ALL they contained.
    Let's look at them. The first was:
    source writes:
    Question: "What does it mean that the Bible is inspired?"
    Answer: When people speak of the Bible being inspired, they are referring to the fact that God divinely influenced the human authors of the Scriptures in such a way that what they wrote was the very Word of God. In the context of the Scriptures, the word inspiration simply means “God-Breathed.” Inspiration communicates to us the fact the Bible truly is the Word of God, and makes the Bible unique among all other books.
    While there are different views as to what extent the Bible is inspired, there can be no doubt that the Bible itself claims that every word, in every part of the Bible, is inspired by God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). This view of the Scriptures is often referred to as “verbal plenary” inspiration. What that means is that the inspiration extends to the very words themselves (verbal inspiration), not just concepts or ideas; and that the inspiration extends to all parts of Scripture and all subject matters of Scripture (plenary inspiration).
    There are some people who believe that only parts of the Bible are inspired, or only the thoughts or concepts that deal with religion are inspired, but these views of inspiration fall short of what the Bible itself claims. Full verbal plenary inspiration is an essential characteristic of the Word of God.
    The first thing to note is that the person speaking is simply wrong. It could be that the person was simply ignorant, but they are proclaiming themselves as an authority, so that makes them appear dishonest. Timothy and Corinthians cannot refer to the Bible because no such thing existed at the time they were speaking. Further, reading 2 Timothy 3 in context, we see that Scripture is what these people had been taught since childhood, and so could not include anything now in the New Testament.
    Nothing in the Bible says that the Bible is inspired or without error.
    Sorry, that is NOT an opinion, that is fact.
    So your first source is at best being willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest.
    Let's look at the next source.
    Your source said:
    If you read the Bible, at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors - you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other.
    We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled.
    Now the first sentence is simply wrong. Again, it is possible that the writer had simply never read the Bible, but from the very beginning there are inconsistencies and contradictions.
    So how could this person miss those? Let's read further.
    Ah, here is the answer:
    somebody writes:
    However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled.
    The person says that if there is what seems to be contradiction or error, you can get around it if you can figure out any conceivable (not even reasonable or plausible) way of reconciling them.
    So getting around the obvious contradictions in Genesis 1 & 2 is simply matter of making up something, two creations, ignoring the fact that each lays out an ordered list, bringing in considerations not in the actual material.
    That is called willful ignorance. You are intentionally saying that you will ignore the facts if you can possibly think of ANY way to get around them.
    You then go on:
    Phat writes:
    Have you ever had a personal encounter with God? Are you saying that because you have or have not, I must fall into your paradigm and world view for how things are? None of us have experienced the same things in our lives.
    I would respond the same way I have in the past; "How would I know that it is GOD?"
    How would I know it is GOD?
    Lots of mystics have had personal encounters with God, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, Benny Hinn, Kent Hovind, Fred Phelps, Mary Baker Eddy, John Wilson, David Koresh, Chuck Smith, William Miller, Joseph Smith and A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada who is the actual incarnation of God.
    Lots have been wrong.
    So again:
    How do you tell it is an encounter with God?
    To go into detail of why I thought your response related to Spong were inane would take this far off topic, but if you wish I will gladly go into detail on those as well.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 73 of 331 (398436)
    04-30-2007 6:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
    04-30-2007 4:11 PM


    Re: Human attempts to understand God
    Did it ever occur to you that your inclination to know everything may just be the very thing keeping you from knowing God?
    How would I know it is GOD?
    You yourself have said that it matters not if Jesus was actually a real person if the stories and lessons themselves were true. (Right?) The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.
    If that is true, then it means your God created intentionally crippled creatures, that he created critters that must remain dependent on Her.
    Why would your God create crippled critters?
    I have said that the lessons can be tested and if they are true, it does not matter if the story is.
    What I have said is that the Gospel we are to carry to the world is really very simple:
    The Gospel is that it is okay to fail, but it is not okay not to try.
    GOD has given all forgiveness. That is a done deal. But we are also charged to try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong, to honestly evaluate and question our behavior, to acknowledge when we screw up, try to make amends and try to do better in the future.
    BUT...
    we will be judged on what we do, not what Jesus does not do.
    The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.
    That would be convenient, wouldn't it. It would be nice if GOD didn't really expect YOU to actually have to do it.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 74 of 331 (398489)
    05-01-2007 12:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by iceage
    04-30-2007 3:00 PM


    Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
    iceage writes:
    GDR my point it that it is a variation, or really an abstraction, on a old and primitive theme. The origins are still firmly rooted in a time when demons and superstition ruled the thoughts of men. The concepts are common to many early religions that formed as humans transition from hunter/gathers to agricultural city-states.
    All of the old mythologies had some rather bizarre ideas. Actually Jewish mythology, (I believe it to be God's chosen mythology), unlike Egyptian, Greek or Roman mythology was the first to really suggest that there was a moral code to follow. It talked about love and gave us the ten commandments. There were still some rather barbaric aspects to it, but they were being slowly weeded out. I good example is the story of Abraham being prepared to sacrifice Issac. I suggest that this was a revelation to the Jews that human sacrifice was contrary to the will of God.
    iceage writes:
    Viewed objectively the concept of communion sounds so strange and surreal. If you were to explain the concept to say an alien being or some otherwise objective intelligence, I believe they would find the notion extremely strange, archaic and quaint, in much the same way viewers of the "Planet of the Apes" series found the description of Ape religion.
    Communion, is among other things a reminder that we are called to take the focus off of ourselves and to do as God commanded, by loving Him and our neighbours. It simply replaces the barbaric with something that is in no way barbaric.
    iceage writes:
    Christ's message was not necessarily about peace...
    Matthew 34 writes:
    Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    Actually it's Matthew 10:34. This is a reference back to Micah and refers to the fact that he knows his message will be divisive.
    Jesus was a Jew, living in Israel while it was being occupied by the Romans. First century Jews were anticipating a Messiah who would lead them in battle and defeat the Romans. Jesus came to establish a spiritual kingdom and wasn't concerned about the occupation. He even befriended Jews who collected taxes for the Romans.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by iceage, posted 04-30-2007 3:00 PM iceage has not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 75 of 331 (398490)
    05-01-2007 12:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    04-26-2007 10:08 AM


    Phat writes:
    In this topic I want to address evangelicals on the board. I am not sure who you all are, but I know some of you. In this topic, I want to be able to speak the way that people speak to each other at church...encouraging, using scripture, and generally going with the theological beliefs of the Pentecostal/Baptist/Assemblies Of God, Non-Denominational sub-culture. (If you know what I mean)
    I've read your posts on this thread Phat and it seems to me that you have a good idea of what it is that you believe but you aren't sure just how you are to read scripture. A lot of us are in that position.
    Neither of us it seems are literalists and so when we read the Bible, particularly the OT we are required to exercise whatever wisdom we have and sort out what it is saying to us.
    Less tha a year ago I found someone who's writing was immensely helpful to me in this area. I am constantly reading and re-reading his material now. His name is NT (Tom) Wright and he is currently the Anglican Bishop of Durham. Here is what wiki says about him.
    N. T. Wright - Wikipedia
    Here is a web page with much of his material
    http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
    The best book of his to start with is called "Simply Christian". Here is the review on Amazon.
    Simply Christian
    I hope this is helpful.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
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