Evangelical Support Group

Did it ever occur to you that your inclination to know everything may just be the very thing keeping you from knowing God?Knowing Jesus is knowing God. You yourself have said that it matters not if Jesus was actually a real person if the stories and lessons themselves were true. (Right?) The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.Edited by Phat, : clarification

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A literalist always begins their world view with scripture and attempts to reconcile everything else through that lens.

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In my experience this is not true. They start with the dogma of their church or even their own opinions and force scripture to fit. The Bible is more an excuse to put words in God's mouth than anything with real value in itself.

I would be happy to see some links. I will honestly read what is written and offer up my beliefs in response to them. I will not accept the label of willful ignorance, however, because I do not think that you, Spong, Hawking, or anyone else has a better understanding of God than I do. Perhaps I am guilty of arrogance in this regard, however. Live and learn!

Phat, that is a good way of putting it.However, it is my point is that the marks and stains of human philosophy ans psychology (albeit archaic) are readily apparent in this collection of works called the Bible. I think it is a intellectually lazy to accept that it is "Holy" because the cover of the book says it is and someone wearing the authority of clergy vestments attest to it. Oh yea. Thanks for the gentle reminder. Sorry, I got carried away.

I've heard Doc Bill argue that the word in Timothy is graphe, meaning all things written.This would seem to say that all writings are useful for learning.

But without some sort of standard through which to relate to God, all we have is individual musings and opinions.Without a scripture to back up a belief, all we have is one more opinion.Without a belief in some explanation, all we are left with is endless questions and a search for One whom we already believe that we know!Oh well...at least I have an idea in my mind and heart who it is that I am praying to! And as has been pointed out, IF He exists, it matters not what we believe. Some points, however:

Has God made any attempts at communication and interaction with humanity? (Individually speaking, I say yes!) If so, will there ever be a consensus or should there be one? Can the sum conclusion of humanity even begin to describe a universal Creator?

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One reason that I trust those conservative Bible scholars is because I have personally met a few and can see integrity within them.

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A perfect answer is more appealing to me than an unresolved question.

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Maybe my critics see that as part of my problem.

What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to?Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?

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In my way of thinking, that is evidently the way God intended it be as God gave no clear sign that any particular scripture is divine. When one rests on the authority of the Bible's "musings" they are merely resting on the "opinion" of others.Even with the Bible as the "standard" humans are still able to substantiate beliefs that are widely divergent.Maybe God cares more about your personal musings and attempts to understand than your willingness to believe some packaged ideology. Maybe if we are going to be condemned, God is going to condemn us on the lack of trying, or the willingness to be seduced by the "salvation for the price of a bumper sticker" theology. Maybe God is going to reward those who engendered kindness without the promise of reward or threat of punishment. Be careful of hero worship. We are all susceptible, I know I am.

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because I do not think that you, Spong, Hawking, or anyone else has a better understanding of God than I do.

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So if everybody has an equal understanding of God, then everybody must be equally right when they make claims about what God likes or dislikes.

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Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?

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I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Im beggin you to beg me.I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
Id love you to love me.
Ill shine up the old brown shoes, put on a brand-new shirt.
Ill get home early from work if you say that you love me.Didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?
Feelin all alone without a friend, you know you feel like dyin.
Oh, didnt i, didnt i, didnt I see you cryin?

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One reason that I trust those conservative Bible scholars is because I have personally met a few and can see integrity within them.

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You can't "see" someone's integrity.Integrity is something that is demonstrated over time, and mostly through adversity.Integrity is doing what you say you will do, even when it isn't easy or convenient.Don't confuse integrity with charisma or conviction.

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A perfect answer is more appealing to me than an unresolved question.

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Maybe my critics see that as part of my problem.

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It is human nature to avoid uncertainty, but settling on an answer to a question merely to relieve our emotional discomfort seems a poor way to find truth. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy"What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell"Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov"We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory

let me start with the sub-title that you added to your message; "Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge".That is a silly statement with inane worth at best, and far more likely simply a false one. As written, it makes no sense. Ignorance does not presupose anything accept that something is unknown. In addition, willful ignorance can be positively identified as I will try to do in the next few paragraphs.I had said, referring to the statement of your sources in Message 47... That seems to upset you, but if we actually parse what you quoted, I believe I can show that is ALL they contained.Let's look at them. The first was: The first thing to note is that the person speaking is simply wrong. It could be that the person was simply ignorant, but they are proclaiming themselves as an authority, so that makes them appear dishonest. Timothy and Corinthians cannot refer to the Bible because no such thing existed at the time they were speaking. Further, reading 2 Timothy 3 in context, we see that Scripture is what these people had been taught since childhood, and so could not include anything now in the New Testament.Nothing in the Bible says that the Bible is inspired or without error.Sorry, that is NOT an opinion, that is fact.So your first source is at best being willfully ignorant, but more likely intentionally dishonest.Let's look at the next source.Your source said: Now the first sentence is simply wrong. Again, it is possible that the writer had simply never read the Bible, but from the very beginning there are inconsistencies and contradictions.So how could this person miss those? Let's read further.Ah, here is the answer: The person says that if there is what seems to be contradiction or error, you can get around it if you can figure out any conceivable (not even reasonable or plausible) way of reconciling them.So getting around the obvious contradictions in Genesis 1 & 2 is simply matter of making up something, two creations, ignoring the fact that each lays out an ordered list, bringing in considerations not in the actual material.That is called willful ignorance. You are intentionally saying that you will ignore the facts if you can possibly think of ANY way to get around them.You then go on: I would respond the same way I have in the past; "How would I know that it is GOD?"How would I know it is GOD?Lots of mystics have had personal encounters with God, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, Benny Hinn, Kent Hovind, Fred Phelps, Mary Baker Eddy, John Wilson, David Koresh, Chuck Smith, William Miller, Joseph Smith and A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada who is the actual incarnation of God.Lots have been wrong.So again:How do you tell it is an encounter with God?To go into detail of why I thought your response related to Spong were inane would take this far off topic, but if you wish I will gladly go into detail on those as well.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How would I know it is GOD? If that is true, then it means your God created intentionally crippled creatures, that he created critters that must remain dependent on Her.Why would your God create crippled critters?I have said that the lessons can be tested and if they are true, it does not matter if the story is.What I have said is that the Gospel we are to carry to the world is really very simple:The Gospel is that it is okay to fail, but it is not okay not to try.GOD has given all forgiveness. That is a done deal. But we are also charged to try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong, to honestly evaluate and question our behavior, to acknowledge when we screw up, try to make amends and try to do better in the future.BUT...we will be judged on what we do, not what Jesus does not do. That would be convenient, wouldn't it. It would be nice if GOD didn't really expect YOU to actually have to do it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

All of the old mythologies had some rather bizarre ideas. Actually Jewish mythology, (I believe it to be God's chosen mythology), unlike Egyptian, Greek or Roman mythology was the first to really suggest that there was a moral code to follow. It talked about love and gave us the ten commandments. There were still some rather barbaric aspects to it, but they were being slowly weeded out. I good example is the story of Abraham being prepared to sacrifice Issac. I suggest that this was a revelation to the Jews that human sacrifice was contrary to the will of God. Communion, is among other things a reminder that we are called to take the focus off of ourselves and to do as God commanded, by loving Him and our neighbours. It simply replaces the barbaric with something that is in no way barbaric. Actually it's Matthew 10:34. This is a reference back to Micah and refers to the fact that he knows his message will be divisive.Jesus was a Jew, living in Israel while it was being occupied by the Romans. First century Jews were anticipating a Messiah who would lead them in battle and defeat the Romans. Jesus came to establish a spiritual kingdom and wasn't concerned about the occupation. He even befriended Jews who collected taxes for the Romans.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I've read your posts on this thread Phat and it seems to me that you have a good idea of what it is that you believe but you aren't sure just how you are to read scripture. A lot of us are in that position.Neither of us it seems are literalists and so when we read the Bible, particularly the OT we are required to exercise whatever wisdom we have and sort out what it is saying to us.Less tha a year ago I found someone who's writing was immensely helpful to me in this area. I am constantly reading and re-reading his material now. His name is NT (Tom) Wright and he is currently the Anglican Bishop of Durham. Here is what wiki says about him.N. T. Wright - WikipediaHere is a web page with much of his materialhttp://www.ntwrightpage.com/The best book of his to start with is called "Simply Christian". Here is the review on Amazon. Simply ChristianI hope this is helpful.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.