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Author | Topic: Falling support for Bush's handling of Iraq among Mormons | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Yeah, in a manner of speaking.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 444 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So basically, since they don't really own it, then they have none.
Amazing, from one survey, or statistic, you came to that conclusion.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. If I lease a car, I don't really own that car, but I do "have a car". If those Mormons in question actually objected to the Iraq war and didn't truly support Bush's handling of it, then they shouldn't have pretended that they did just because their leader told them to. If they had owned their own morality, it wouldn't have been a problem for them to have objected all along instead of going against their true feelings out of obedience to their religious leader.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 444 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
If I lease a car, I don't really own that car, but I do "have a car". It's your money that pays for the lease.Whatever, it is stupid nit-picking. If those Mormons in question actually objected to the Iraq war and didn't truly support Bush's handling of it, then they shouldn't have pretended that they did just because their leader told them to. I don't think that survey proves that the mormons pretending anything "just because their leaders told them too" There may be other reasons involved, not able to be seen by a simple survey. And it certainly doen't mean they do not own their own morality. If anything, it shows that their morality leads them to stick together. Maybe you have a hard time with that, because your idea of morality only includes individualism. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: LOL! No, that is the point I was trying to make and now you agree.
quote: Sure. This is all speculation. However, the survey results, I will remind you, are pretty much unheard of. That kind of large shift in opinion just doesn't happen. That's the biggest reason I think that there were a large numer of Utah Mormons who were just waiting, so to speak, for the smallest signal from their religious leader that they were permitted to disapprove of Bush.
quote: Yes, that is what it means. If they owned their own morality, they wouldn't have waited for permission to disapprove of Bush.
quote: IF true, that means that those individuals who seemed to be "waiting" for permission to disapprove of Bush think that their own moral sense is second in importance to that of their religious leader's. That means that those individuals don't own their own morality, but subsume it to another's. Maybe you have a hard time with that, because your idea of morality only includes individualism.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 444 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
quote:Yea you have one, but you don't own it. Whatever, it is stupid nit-picking. LOL! No, that is the point I was trying to make and now you agree. ???But it is not yours, thats the point I was trying to make. Plus I think I was refering more to, that if they are using someone else's morality, then they must not have their own.
However, the survey results, I will remind you, are pretty much unheard of. That kind of large shift in opinion just doesn't happen. I see it happen all the time within the Jewish community. They stick together.
That's the biggest reason I think that there were a large numer of Utah Mormons who were just waiting, so to speak, for the smallest signal from their religious leader that they were permitted to disapprove of Bush. See, now this raises what I hope to be a legitimate question. Was the signal from their religious leader to not support Bush, or was it for them to form their own opinion?If the leader just stopped supporting Bush, and gave legitimate reasons why to the mormons, so that they too would have a reason to stop supporting Bush, other than just beacause the leader stopped, and then some of the mormons still support Bush, then they do have their own morality, and are free to support whoever they please. Maybe you have a hard time with that, because your idea of morality only includes individualism. Maybe, or their morality is to stick together, not that they don't have one. I am pretty sure they aren't locked in to one view. I voted for Bush, yet now I can't stand him. I don't know if Kerry would have been a better choice or not. Things can change over time.Maybe the mormons were waiting for just one more screw up from Bush, to stop supporting him. ABE: Either way I would say there are just too many unknown factors that would help us in deciding if the mormons own their own morality or not, to just use this one survey to come to that decision. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
However, the survey results, I will remind you, are pretty much unheard of. That kind of large shift in opinion just doesn't happen. quote: No, what you would need to show is a similar large shift AWAY from "sticking together" as soon as a prominent Rabbi merely hinted that it was OK to do so. You haven't shown any sort of poll results, anyway, so your comments about Jews being similar are useless to your argument.
quote: Read the article I linked to in the OP. The leader never mentioned Bush in the speech that sparked the discussion among Mormons on message boards and led to the dramtic shift in the poll results. He only lamented the terrible costs of war. I think that this is pretty good evidence that many Mormons had long disapproved of Bush and were only saying they supported him out of obedience to their religious leaders. That, to me, is a lie. It is a lie about one's own personal morality. That means that these people believe it is expected of them that they lie in a poll out of obedience rather than state their honest opinion. If that isn't an example of not owning one's own morality, I don't know what is.
quote: quote: I think it's really funny that you contradicted the statement about morality and individualism above, because I didn't write them; you did. To me. I forgot to put quote boxes around them in my last reply to you and didn't notice it dangling there at the end of the post. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 444 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
quote: From here:Mickeleh's Soapbox: August 2006 I understand that this doesn't fully support what I am saying about the Jews sticking together, but it does lend itself to showing how the jews decision process is influenced by people who are famous and Jewish. They also point out how it is so important for them to stick together. I mean it is a pretty well known fact that the Jewish vote is usually overwlemingly democratic.Bad Math Here the washington post talks about how the "Jewish vote" had diminshed, but that is only for presidential elections. We still see the "Jewish vote" locally here in NY.http://www.washingtonpost.com/...rticles/A705-2004Oct26.html I don't think I need to show a shift away from a voting decision, when it is pretty obvious that they do stick together. Anyway this information would take some time to uncover, time I don't have. But I can remember shifts occuring in the news from time to time over the years, according to the "Jewish vote."
If that isn't an example of not owning one's own morality, I don't know what is. Just for clarity, I am not saying you are wrong.
I think it's really funny that you contradicted the statement about morality and individualism above, because I didn't write them; you did. I don't see how I contradicted myself.
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