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Author Topic:   Evolution or Creation
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 136 of 301 (396415)
04-19-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
04-19-2007 4:29 PM


Re: ignorant and unlearned
quote:
I understand them to mean that my faith in God is ignorance,
And that I should be an atheist.
You would be wrong about that, at least in my case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 4:29 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 137 of 301 (396418)
04-19-2007 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
04-19-2007 9:30 PM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
quote:
God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet.
1) So you are the one who decides what God can and can't be?
2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 9:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 11:07 PM nator has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 138 of 301 (396425)
04-19-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by nator
04-19-2007 9:57 PM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either.
Who said He did?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by nator, posted 04-19-2007 9:57 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by nator, posted 04-19-2007 11:36 PM ICANT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 139 of 301 (396434)
04-19-2007 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
04-19-2007 11:07 PM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
2) He doesn't claim to be a scientist in the bible, either.
quote:
Who said He did?
You are the one saying that you believe the Bible in scientific matters over the actual science, so, you did.
(Plan on addressing the other sentence in my post?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 11:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 4:34 AM nator has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 140 of 301 (396460)
04-20-2007 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by nator
04-19-2007 11:36 PM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
quote:
God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet.
1) So you are the one who decides what God can and can't be?
(Plan on addressing the other sentence in my post?)
Why should I it has nothing to do with the OP but why not:
You either have a warped mind or a warped sense of humor.
How does me stating that God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet
make me the one deciding what God can or can't be?
But you sure can decide what I said even though I didn't say it.
Will you please stop putting words in my mouth I did not say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by nator, posted 04-19-2007 11:36 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by fallacycop, posted 04-20-2007 9:04 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 142 by nator, posted 04-20-2007 9:07 AM ICANT has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 141 of 301 (396470)
04-20-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
04-20-2007 4:34 AM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
How does me stating that God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet
make me the one deciding what God can or can't be?
But you sure can decide what I said even though I didn't say it.
Will you please stop putting words in my mouth I did not say?
Come on, ICANT. You said that the genesis should not be interpreted as poetic alegory, because god does not claim to be a poet. So you are the one saying that he can't be a poet. You've deceided that only a literal interpretation of the bible is acceptable. You are telling us (and god) how to properly interpret his word. An act of hubris.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 4:34 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 11:00 AM fallacycop has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 301 (396472)
04-20-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by ICANT
04-20-2007 4:34 AM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
quote:
How does me stating that God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet
make me the one deciding what God can or can't be?
I'm sorry.
Perhaps I misunderstood.
How silly of me to conclude that when someone suggested to you that the God of the Bible is a poet who used parable to instruct us, and you responded by writing, "God nowhere in the Bible claims to be a poet.", you meant to say that you did not think that God was a poet.
Perhaps you can tell me what you really meant.
OTOH, I suppose it is your position that the Song of Solomon, a good portion of the book of Job, and the Psalms are not the Word of God, then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 4:34 AM ICANT has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 143 of 301 (396475)
04-20-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
04-19-2007 5:12 PM


Re: But it is a Choice
ICANT writes:
If the recorded things God said and did in the day of Creation did not happen exactly as He said that day (all in one day) then God is a Liar, and none of the Bible is true.
So, if one thing in the Bible turns out to be untrue then the whole Bible is untrue?
I guess you better become an athiest or at least move to a faith not based upon the Old Testament because:
quote:
Leviticus 11:6
The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you.
Deuteronomy 14:7
However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you.
Neither rabbits nor coneys chew cud.
That is, assuming that one wrong fact undoes all truth in a manuscript. However, if you accept the truth of scripture despite this minor discrepancy(among others), why must the problems of the creation story get in the way of belief in the power of Christ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 5:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 1:08 PM LinearAq has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 144 of 301 (396478)
04-20-2007 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICANT
04-19-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Belief = Response to Experience
I Cant:
So according to you my belief in God is based on experience.
Genuine belief is a spontaneous, involuntary response to experience. About the details of your biography I only know what you tell me.
What you told me earlier was that you 'believed' when you read the Bible at age seven. In the absence of any other details, I credited this professed belief as being the genuine article. I pointed out that reading the Bible is itself an experience. Your belief (if genuine) thus came from experience, as all genuine belief does.
Now you offer a more detailed, and weird, story. Here it is as you tell it.
I read the Bible.
From the things I read in the Bible I came to some conclusions.
I then analyzed my conclusions.
I then chose to believe the Bible account of God.
I could have just as easily discarded the idea.
I believe Genesis 1:1
Let's look at that beauty a little closer. Note the words I have placed in boldface type.
I read the Bible.
From the things I read in the Bible I came to some conclusions.
I then analyzed my conclusions.
I then chose to believe the Bible account of God.
I could have just as easily discarded the idea.
I believe Genesis 1:1
Are you starting to see the problem?
It appears you already believed at the point of line 2. That's where you say you 'came to some conclusions.'
[qs]I read the Bible.
From the things I read in the Bible [/b]I came to some conclusions.[/b][/qs]
Forming a conclusion IS believing. Oddly, though, you don't see these conclusions as the beginning of your belief.
Maybe you have good reason. You don't say, after all, what these conclusions were. Maybe the existence of God wasn't the first order of business. Maybe the seven-year-old you more pressing issues to resolve first.
Were you convinced God exists by what you read? That's belief. Were you trying to figure out what was expected of you before proceeding? That's fear.
I then analyzed my conclusions.
I then chose to believe the Bible account of God.
First you say you arrived at conclusions, then later willed your 'belief.' Odd.
I could have just as easily discarded the idea.
Then you're not talking about an idea you really believe.
I believe Genesis 1:1
A ringing endorsement... given that you could 'just as easily discard the idea.'

You talk about belief as if you were voting in a particularly odious small-town election. You are only acquainted with one candidate and you assume the existence of only two. You're not enthusiastic about either of them. But you don't see any benefit for yourself in declaring yourself undecided. You may as well throw the lever one way or the other to secure a few benefits for yourself.
You announced early in the campaign that you would vote for Candidate A. He's the guy your relatives are voting for. A has promised to pay you good money for your vote. He has also threatened to beat you up if he loses.
His opponent has offered no similar inducements.
Now, two days before the election, you've decided you may as well hear what Candidate B has to say. You drop in on a rally. You tell everyone your vote can still be had. You listen to the stump speech to hear if Candidate B is willing to beat Candidate A's offer.
But the more B talks the less you feel any reason to switch your (admittedly shallow) loyalties. B refuses to offer you money for your vote and says nothing that makes you fear for your personal safety if you remain in the rival camp.
In the Q&A session you tell Candidate B as much. B tells you you're a living example of the kind of corruption he opposes. You are appalled that any candidate would talk to you this way.
You're an honest voter. You're trying to be fair. You've given this person one last chance to offer you better money or scare more shit out of you than the other guy. If he's not willing to make the effort, well... it's not your fault he lost your vote, is it? That's politics.
But it's not personal belief.
Belief is about convictions. Not making deals.
And it's sad that, after 67 years of living, you show no awareness of the difference.
_______

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 4:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 11:49 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 145 of 301 (396483)
04-20-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
04-19-2007 9:20 PM


Same question again?
ICANT writes:
What would of been the benefit for me to be an atheist?
What would be the benefit for me to believe that I evolved from a single cell life form that nobody knows where it came from, how or why it appeared in a universe that came from an infinitely small nothing that nobody knows where it came from, how, or why?
You seem to keep asking this question. After everyone has given you plenty of answers. Do you not like the answers? Are they not good enough for you (certainly acceptable)?
I'll repeat my answer from Message 48:
quote:
ICANT, what do you want in your life?
ICANT, what do you want for your grand-son's life?
ICANT, if what you want is promises, your "atheism" has nothing to offer you.
ICANT, if what you want is objective truth, your "atheism" is the only path that currently provides this.
But, as many others have pointed out to you, you don't even have to turn to your "atheism" in order to follow objective truth (it is a false dichotomy). You only need to be willing to accept things that can be shown to you. There is no need to give up God. There is no need to stop believing in God. There is no need to stop being a Christian. You only have to stop accepting things people tell you, and start accepting the things that can be shown to you. Is that what's wrong? Does accepting things that can be shown as real/reproducible/objective to you scare you, or seem evil in some way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 9:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 12:18 PM Stile has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 146 of 301 (396492)
04-20-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by fallacycop
04-20-2007 9:04 AM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
Come on, ICANT. You said that the genesis should not be interpreted as poetic alegory, because god does not claim to be a poet. So you are the one saying that he can't be a poet. You've deceided that only a literal interpretation of the bible is acceptable. You are telling us (and god) how to properly interpret his word. An act of hubris.
I said God does not claim to be a poet.
How does that not make Him a poet if He wants to be one and is one?
You say that since I choose to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible I say God can't be a poet. That is nonsense.
Because you believe it is a poetic alegory you are saying He can't be God.
That means you are saying He was a poet and can only be a poet.
Now who is telling God what He can or can't be?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by fallacycop, posted 04-20-2007 9:04 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 04-20-2007 11:12 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 158 by fallacycop, posted 04-20-2007 3:07 PM ICANT has not replied

Codegate
Member (Idle past 818 days)
Posts: 84
From: The Great White North
Joined: 03-15-2006


Message 147 of 301 (396495)
04-20-2007 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by ICANT
04-19-2007 8:52 PM


Re: inconsistent with creationism
icant writes:
As I understand the string theory it is an effort to show what was before the big bang.
This is a big misconception that many many laypeople have about the universe. There is no 'before' the big bang. Time did not exist prior to the event, at least according to all modern theories.
There are others here (cavediver, son goku) that are FAR more learned in this department then I. They have discussed it many times in the past with others on other threads here. Have a read and post on those threads (or start a new one) if you have any questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 04-19-2007 8:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 12:33 PM Codegate has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 301 (396499)
04-20-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ICANT
04-20-2007 11:00 AM


Re: (maybe) Everything in Life is (not) a Choice
quote:
Because you believe it is a poetic alegory you are saying He can't be God.
That is not what anyone has suggested.
We are saying that if Genesis is a poetic allegory it does not diminish God at all, and in fact makes His Word even more meaningful.
Have you really reduced the Bible to be nothing more than a dry list of events to be catalogued and blindly believed?
Taken as allegory, Genesis is a richly symbolic and meaningful lesson about God's relationship to man and to the universe.
Taken as literal fact, it is just a list of stuff that God did which you have stripped of any greater or wider meaning.
But since you mention it, can you explain how it is that God created "day" and "night" before he created the sun?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ICANT, posted 04-20-2007 11:00 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 149 of 301 (396507)
04-20-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Archer Opteryx
04-20-2007 9:56 AM


Re: Belief = Response to Experience
Belief is about convictions. Not making deals.
Belief is about convictions.
Archer have you read the OP?
Message 1 These are facts as far as I am concerned.
quote:
That God made me so I could choose to love and serve Him just because He is God.
That man has a sin nature he inherited from Adam.
God provided a sacrifice to pay my sin debt.
Jesus the only begotten Son of God was crucified that I might be saved.
That to go to heaven I must trust in That Sacrifice.
That if I do nothing I will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
That Christ was buried and arose 3 days later.
That 40 days later he ascended into Heaven to make intercession for me.
That Jesus is coming again.
That I will be judged according to how I have done on earth and will be rewarded accordingly.
That all who have not trusted Christ will stand at the Great White Throne judgment and confess Jesus is Lord.
That all whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
That there will be a new Heaven and Earth.
That there will be no more day or night as God will be the light.
That there will be a City, The New Jerusalem that has streets of Gold, where I will live with God for eternity.
quote:
I have had a happy full life and enjoyed every minute of it and I can say as Paul said, I have fought a good fight I have kept the faith and if it does end with my death what have I lost. I would not trade what I have had and still have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have put together. That money could not buy the peace and satisfaction I have had for the past 58 years. I have never needed anything that my God has not supplied.
You may think this statement is a joke: I would not trade what I have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet has combined.
That come out to 92.5 billion dollars. I think I have a little conviction about what I believe.
BTW I read the Bible through 2 times and was on my third time before my mind was completely convinced and I Trusted Christ for Salvation.
So you make whatever you want to out of this.
So who made a deal?

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-20-2007 9:56 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 04-20-2007 12:30 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 167 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-21-2007 11:16 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 150 of 301 (396508)
04-20-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Stile
04-20-2007 10:22 AM


Re: Same question again?
What would of been the benefit for me to be an atheist?.
Stile, I do want to thank you for answering the OP and saying, Then atheism has nothing for you..
You only need to be willing to accept things that can be shown to you.
Prove to me where the first single cell life form came from, how and why.
Prove to me where the singularity that the Universe came from, how and why.
When you have accomplished this then I might listen to any other things that you might want to convince me of.
You see the Bible tells me the answer to these Questions.
Atheism and Evolution does not and can not answer them. All they can say is we don't know. But because we exist and the universe exist we know it happened.
Do you know how stupid this sounds to a creationist?
I suppose to put it on a level you can understand I would say that it sounds as stupid to me as me saying that in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth does to the Atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 04-20-2007 10:22 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Stile, posted 04-20-2007 1:51 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 162 by nator, posted 04-20-2007 9:34 PM ICANT has replied

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