Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Falling support for Bush's handling of Iraq among Mormons
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 23 (391953)
03-28-2007 8:53 AM


Recent Gallup polls have shown a 21 point drop in favor of Bush's handling of the Iraq war among Utah Mormons. American Mormons in general have been among Bush's most staunch supporters and how he has handled Iraq, so what has caused this sharp drop in support?
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_5517138
According to the above article, the LDS church leadership have instructed their millions of followers to support Bush in Iraq, but recent comments by LDS President Hinkley about war in general seems to have been interpreted by many Mormons to be "permission" to oppose the Bush's management of Iraq.
What I would like to discuss is this.
I find it incredible and frankly, morally repugnant, that so many Mormons supported Bush and the war just because their church leaders told them to. Further, they continued to support it merely out of obedience rather than out of any real conviction, as this sharp drop in suppor seems to show.
Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said?
And isn't this how genocides and other atrocities are made possible; when people place obedience to some authority (religious or otherwise) above everything else and choose to not question it, let alone reject or oppose it?
Not sure where this should go.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 03-29-2007 12:59 PM nator has not replied
 Message 4 by Tusko, posted 03-30-2007 7:57 AM nator has not replied
 Message 6 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2007 1:04 AM nator has replied
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 04-02-2007 8:41 PM nator has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 23 (392045)
03-28-2007 9:46 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 23 (392129)
03-29-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-28-2007 8:53 AM


Before the election of 2004, everybody, and I do mean everybody, told me that there was no way Bush was going to win again. Why? Because his numbers went for a nosedive. I'm pretty sure you, me, crashfrog, and every other liberal pinko commie thought there was no way he was going to win. Then... SURPRISE!!! He won both the popularity and electoral counts.
In fact, I woulnd't be surprised if he wins a 3rd term this time. How? I don't know... may be he could declare a state of terrorism emergency and declare martial law... then the whole country will really support him...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-28-2007 8:53 AM nator has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 4 of 23 (392284)
03-30-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-28-2007 8:53 AM


The Authoritarians
I think its appropriate to offer up a little plug here for The Authoritarians. It was brought to my attention by Coragyps a few weeks ago on this very site. It's interesting way of looking at herd morals (among other things) in modern conservative America.
But at the same time I think there is always the danger that anyone can slip into this kind of approach to moral problems. I sometimes have to stop myself agreeing unthinkingly with people I admire and respect. I think its probably quite common, though in differing degrees, simply because its hard to be morally scrupulous all the time. That said, I guess its something that we should all strive for.
Tell me what you think about The Authoritarians if you can, I'd be interested to hear what other people had to say about it. I was sorry it wasn't picked up more as a thread.
Edited by Tusko, : Tried to straighten out a horrible sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-28-2007 8:53 AM nator has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 5 of 23 (392416)
03-31-2007 2:34 AM


Remember their history
To put it in perspective, one should remember that the Mormons were a persecuted minority, and long ago learned to band tightly together.
The results haven't always been good, but it's a lesson they aren't in any hurry to forget.
Voting as a 'block' is only one method of banding together, but it shouldn't be surprising.

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 6 of 23 (392515)
04-01-2007 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-28-2007 8:53 AM


Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said?
This comment intrigues me.
Are they not owning ther own morality, just because they are following leaders?
Is every soldier who kills in a war, missing their own morals, because they have listened to their leaders?
P.S. I am not sticking up for the mormons.
Can it just be that in light of all the evidence, the leaders have just changed their minds about Bush, and the rest of the followers understand the leaders position?
I think you would have to prove that mormons are being brain washed, and have no free will at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-28-2007 8:53 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 04-01-2007 9:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 23 (392552)
04-01-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by riVeRraT
04-01-2007 1:04 AM


quote:
Are they not owning ther own morality, just because they are following leaders?
As the sharp drop in support suggests, many Utah Mormons were against Bush's handling of the war, but previously disregarded or subsumed their own moral convictions as secondary to those of their leaders'.
That means, by definition, that they do not own their own morality, but wait to be told what their morality should be from an external source and do not ever consider questioning if that external source's morality is adequate, let alone superior.
You must understand, rat, that this drop in support for Bush among Utah Mormons was along the lines of a 20 point plummet in a very small time frame. That is pretty much unheard of.
quote:
Can it just be that in light of all the evidence, the leaders have just changed their minds about Bush, and the rest of the followers understand the leaders position?
No, I don't think so. Otherwise, there would not have been shuch an incredibly sharp drop.
quote:
I think you would have to prove that mormons are being brain washed, and have no free will at all.
While that is one possible explanation, I don't think it is the most likely.
I think the most likely explanation is that the Utah Mormons, as a group, are willing to discount or hide their own moral sense if their leader tells them to. Clearly, a great many of them didn't actually support Bush's handing of Iraq, but were told by their leaders that they must, so they ignored their own moral sense and did. Once there was the barest inkling that it was "OK" to disagree with the war and still be a "good Mormon", they finally felt free to express their long-held disapproval.
Thus, they don't truly own their own morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2007 1:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by riVeRraT, posted 04-02-2007 12:10 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 8 of 23 (392737)
04-02-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
04-01-2007 9:34 AM


That means, by definition, that they do not own their own morality, but wait to be told what their morality should be from an external source and do not ever consider questioning if that external source's morality is adequate, let alone superior.
Why do you always make that leap and assume so much?
You must understand, rat, that this drop in support for Bush among Utah Mormons was along the lines of a 20 point plummet in a very small time frame. That is pretty much unheard of.
The Jewish do the same thing around here. That is why government won't touch them. Are the Jews all going to drink kool-aid and die now? Or are they just sticking together for a common cause?
Have they lost their morality because of this?
Clearly, a great many of them didn't actually support Bush's handing of Iraq, but were told by their leaders that they must, so they ignored their own moral sense and did.
I think there is a different explanation, and morals has nothing to do with it. It's all political.
It's probably morally correct to stick together, and the reason for doing that, outwiegh the reasons for aproval or disaproval of Bush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 04-01-2007 9:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 04-02-2007 8:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 23 (392892)
04-02-2007 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by riVeRraT
04-02-2007 12:10 AM


What polling data are you referring to regarding the Jews?
What radical change in polling results were there as a result of what some Rabbi said?
The rest of your post is merely a bunch of personal doubts with no logical argument to justify them, so it's pretty much a non-substantive response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by riVeRraT, posted 04-02-2007 12:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 04-04-2007 8:20 AM nator has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 23 (392900)
04-02-2007 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-28-2007 8:53 AM


background info?
I find it incredible and frankly, morally repugnant, that so many Mormons supported Bush and the war just because their church leaders told them to. Further, they continued to support it merely out of obedience rather than out of any real conviction, as this sharp drop in suppor seems to show.
Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said?
This really is how many people go through life.
Read the on-line book listed in The Authoritarians for some discussion on it.
This may not be directly related to the topic, but I like the results from the "Global Change Game" chapter 1) as an example of what can result from this kind of thinking:
quote:
By carefully organizing sign-up booklets, I was able to get 67 low RWA students to play the game together on October 18th . (They had no idea they had been funneled into this run of the experiment according to their RWA scale scores; ...) ...
Regions set to work on their individual problems. Swords were converted to ploughshares as the number of armies in the world dropped. No wars or threats of wars occurred during the simulation.
The next night 68 high RWAs showed up for their ride, just as ignorant of how they had been funneled into this run of the experiment as the low RWA students ... A nuclear holocaust ensued which killed everyone on earth--7.4 billion people--and almost all other forms of life which had the misfortune of co-habitating the same planet as a species with nukes.
There's a moral lesson for you.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-28-2007 8:53 AM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 11 of 23 (393284)
04-04-2007 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by nator
04-02-2007 8:06 PM


What polling data are you referring to regarding the Jews?
I should have been more specific, the hasidic jews.
It is a well known fact around here that they all vote the same way.
That is why they do not get touched politiaclly, theres no need for a poll on the obvious.
Your using one point to prove that the mormon's have no morality, and then blame me for a post with non-substance?
I think it take's more than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 04-02-2007 8:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 04-06-2007 9:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 23 (393660)
04-06-2007 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by riVeRraT
04-04-2007 8:20 AM


Where did I say that Mormons have no morality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 04-04-2007 8:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 04-06-2007 10:06 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 13 of 23 (393663)
04-06-2007 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
04-06-2007 9:49 AM


Where did I say that Mormons have no morality?
You said they don't own their morality, if they don't own it, then they don't have any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 04-06-2007 9:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 04-06-2007 9:32 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 23 (393769)
04-06-2007 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by riVeRraT
04-06-2007 10:06 AM


quote:
You said they don't own their morality, if they don't own it, then they don't have any.
Nope, that's not what "not owning one's own morality" means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by riVeRraT, posted 04-06-2007 10:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 04-09-2007 9:01 PM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 23 (394148)
04-09-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
04-06-2007 9:32 PM


So, what are they leasing it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 04-06-2007 9:32 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 04-13-2007 7:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024