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Author | Topic: Falling support for Bush's handling of Iraq among Mormons | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Recent Gallup polls have shown a 21 point drop in favor of Bush's handling of the Iraq war among Utah Mormons. American Mormons in general have been among Bush's most staunch supporters and how he has handled Iraq, so what has caused this sharp drop in support?
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_5517138 According to the above article, the LDS church leadership have instructed their millions of followers to support Bush in Iraq, but recent comments by LDS President Hinkley about war in general seems to have been interpreted by many Mormons to be "permission" to oppose the Bush's management of Iraq. What I would like to discuss is this. I find it incredible and frankly, morally repugnant, that so many Mormons supported Bush and the war just because their church leaders told them to. Further, they continued to support it merely out of obedience rather than out of any real conviction, as this sharp drop in suppor seems to show. Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said? And isn't this how genocides and other atrocities are made possible; when people place obedience to some authority (religious or otherwise) above everything else and choose to not question it, let alone reject or oppose it? Not sure where this should go.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Before the election of 2004, everybody, and I do mean everybody, told me that there was no way Bush was going to win again. Why? Because his numbers went for a nosedive. I'm pretty sure you, me, crashfrog, and every other liberal pinko commie thought there was no way he was going to win. Then... SURPRISE!!! He won both the popularity and electoral counts.
In fact, I woulnd't be surprised if he wins a 3rd term this time. How? I don't know... may be he could declare a state of terrorism emergency and declare martial law... then the whole country will really support him...
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Tusko Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
I think its appropriate to offer up a little plug here for The Authoritarians. It was brought to my attention by Coragyps a few weeks ago on this very site. It's interesting way of looking at herd morals (among other things) in modern conservative America.
But at the same time I think there is always the danger that anyone can slip into this kind of approach to moral problems. I sometimes have to stop myself agreeing unthinkingly with people I admire and respect. I think its probably quite common, though in differing degrees, simply because its hard to be morally scrupulous all the time. That said, I guess its something that we should all strive for. Tell me what you think about The Authoritarians if you can, I'd be interested to hear what other people had to say about it. I was sorry it wasn't picked up more as a thread. Edited by Tusko, : Tried to straighten out a horrible sentence
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CTD Member (Idle past 5869 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
To put it in perspective, one should remember that the Mormons were a persecuted minority, and long ago learned to band tightly together.
The results haven't always been good, but it's a lesson they aren't in any hurry to forget. Voting as a 'block' is only one method of banding together, but it shouldn't be surprising.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said? This comment intrigues me. Are they not owning ther own morality, just because they are following leaders? Is every soldier who kills in a war, missing their own morals, because they have listened to their leaders? P.S. I am not sticking up for the mormons. Can it just be that in light of all the evidence, the leaders have just changed their minds about Bush, and the rest of the followers understand the leaders position? I think you would have to prove that mormons are being brain washed, and have no free will at all.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: As the sharp drop in support suggests, many Utah Mormons were against Bush's handling of the war, but previously disregarded or subsumed their own moral convictions as secondary to those of their leaders'. That means, by definition, that they do not own their own morality, but wait to be told what their morality should be from an external source and do not ever consider questioning if that external source's morality is adequate, let alone superior. You must understand, rat, that this drop in support for Bush among Utah Mormons was along the lines of a 20 point plummet in a very small time frame. That is pretty much unheard of.
quote: No, I don't think so. Otherwise, there would not have been shuch an incredibly sharp drop.
quote: While that is one possible explanation, I don't think it is the most likely. I think the most likely explanation is that the Utah Mormons, as a group, are willing to discount or hide their own moral sense if their leader tells them to. Clearly, a great many of them didn't actually support Bush's handing of Iraq, but were told by their leaders that they must, so they ignored their own moral sense and did. Once there was the barest inkling that it was "OK" to disagree with the war and still be a "good Mormon", they finally felt free to express their long-held disapproval. Thus, they don't truly own their own morality.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
That means, by definition, that they do not own their own morality, but wait to be told what their morality should be from an external source and do not ever consider questioning if that external source's morality is adequate, let alone superior. Why do you always make that leap and assume so much?
You must understand, rat, that this drop in support for Bush among Utah Mormons was along the lines of a 20 point plummet in a very small time frame. That is pretty much unheard of. The Jewish do the same thing around here. That is why government won't touch them. Are the Jews all going to drink kool-aid and die now? Or are they just sticking together for a common cause?Have they lost their morality because of this? Clearly, a great many of them didn't actually support Bush's handing of Iraq, but were told by their leaders that they must, so they ignored their own moral sense and did. I think there is a different explanation, and morals has nothing to do with it. It's all political.It's probably morally correct to stick together, and the reason for doing that, outwiegh the reasons for aproval or disaproval of Bush.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What polling data are you referring to regarding the Jews?
What radical change in polling results were there as a result of what some Rabbi said? The rest of your post is merely a bunch of personal doubts with no logical argument to justify them, so it's pretty much a non-substantive response.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I find it incredible and frankly, morally repugnant, that so many Mormons supported Bush and the war just because their church leaders told them to. Further, they continued to support it merely out of obedience rather than out of any real conviction, as this sharp drop in suppor seems to show. Isn't this a case of people not owning their own morality, as Ringo has said? This really is how many people go through life. Read the on-line book listed in The Authoritarians for some discussion on it. This may not be directly related to the topic, but I like the results from the "Global Change Game" chapter 1) as an example of what can result from this kind of thinking:
quote: There's a moral lesson for you. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
What polling data are you referring to regarding the Jews? I should have been more specific, the hasidic jews.It is a well known fact around here that they all vote the same way. That is why they do not get touched politiaclly, theres no need for a poll on the obvious. Your using one point to prove that the mormon's have no morality, and then blame me for a post with non-substance? I think it take's more than that.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Where did I say that Mormons have no morality?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Where did I say that Mormons have no morality? You said they don't own their morality, if they don't own it, then they don't have any.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Nope, that's not what "not owning one's own morality" means.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So, what are they leasing it?
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