Communism (Godless or otherwise)

Good question, JustinCy. A lot of people will define the terms very differently. Some will define socialism to be where the state is the owner of major industries, and communism is a socialist dictatorship loosely based on the ideas of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. A valid definition in some contexts, I suppose, except that no socialist or communist that I know defines the words like this.I tend to use the words communism, socialism, and anarchism more or less interchangeably, with the different words expressing different nuances.My understanding of socialism is that in a socialist society the workers control the means of production and control their working condidtions. Communism is when private property is abolished, and all property is jointly controled by those who are affected by decisions concerning the resources in question.. Anarchism is when the central government is weak or non-existent, and power is decentralized, in the extreme case where all associations are purely voluntary.The former Soviet Union was not socialist, since production and control working conditions were controled by the state, not the workers. It was not communist since the state acted as the major property owner, and used its power over its property to control the population. And it also was not anarchist since the central state was extremely powerful.But I would be interested in hearing how others would define these terms, especially those on the radical left since we are the ones who use these words to describe ourselves.

In 1935, Leon Trotsky wrote an article "If America should go Communist". This was written during some of the worst economiic times the US has faced in the last 100 years and gives a pretty good idea of how one of the major theorists of communism viewed the development of a Industrialized Communist State. It begins with the assumption that the US, unlike Russia in the 1900's, would have a basic economy and social system capable of providing more than a simple survival level society.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Might as well let it out of my system now.The problem with every communist experiment in the past is that they never followed Marx's theory to the letter.Marx's philosophy in lament's term:Feudalism ---> Merchantilism ---> Capitalism ---> CommunismRussia tried to go from a feudalist society straight to communist.Here is the problem with why this failed. In the old days, people began to trade and slowly emerged from feudalism to merchantilism, where society witnessed the emergence of a middle class. Before that, there were only the have's and the have-not's. Very slowly, the merchantilists would build a kind of economic infrastructure, or backbone, for their society. With such a infrastructure was able to provide proper transportation and trade, merchantilist society slowly evolved into a capitalist.According to Marx, the capitalist society is the more productive society ever witnessed by civilization. Division of labor undoubtedly made everything cheaper. As was described by Adam Smith in his example with making the pin, people became specialized in whatever part of the job in the factory that they worked in. The problems that Marx pointed out were that the net result of all of it was that people became dumber and dumber. They only knew how to do whatever part of the job they were taught to do and nothing else. Life was boring, to say the least.Another problem that Marx pointed out was the fact that the workers didn't actually sell their labor to the capitalists. They sold their labor time. Also, productivity may be high, but freedom has dropped significantly from what a merchantilist society witnessed.Anyway, getting back to where I wanted to go. A society that has undergone through merchantilism and capitalism should have the infrastructure and the economy strong enough to support a society that is a communist one. Productivity may be lower in a communist society, but freedom should definitely be higher, Marx argued.The problem with Russia is that it tried to change from a feudalist country directly to a communist country. First of all, it meant that there wasn't an infrastructure that could support such a society. Also, because Lenin saw that peasants couldn't really rule themselves, like what was portrayed in the communist manifesto, he decided that they should have some kind of big brother to make the decisions for the peasants. It was meant to be only temporary, at least until the peasants/workers could rule themselves.Well, as the old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely.Perhaps the bigger problem than what we saw in Russia in 1924 was that other societies that tried to convert to communism followed Russia's example rather than Marx's philosophy. China tried to make a leapfrog from an ancient imperialist society to a communist after Russia's example. Mao's "cultural revolution" was a failure simply because he tried to rush everything. He tried to modernize the country but he completely disregarded the fact that just a few years before China was an agrarian society. The Chinese traditions at the time left little room for change.To be continued...This message has been edited by Lam, 10-04-2004 05:35 PM

Bumping this topic with something from elsewhere.Jar, at the "A Christian State" topic, posted: One (sort of) quible I have with Jar's above quoted, is the "the closest form of government would be communisim" bit. Strictly speaking, communisim is an economic system, not a government system. Still, since government and economics are so intertwined, the term "communistic government" is actually valid.This topic is still short, so I recommend reading it from the beginning. Lam's message (the previous #18) in particular, is of Post of the Month (POTM) quality. It included: and I would argue that much of capitalism has become too productive - In many ways, we have productivity far beyond our needs. Products are being created essential to be sent to the waste disposal system. It would be desirable that the excesses of capitalism be pruned back and the activities benifiting community (communism?) be enhanced.Quoting arachnophilia quoting Benito Mussolini (message 11): Is not government/capitalism in the U.S. (and elsewhere) not becoming "corporatism"? I would say yes.I close this message by highlighting a quote from my "signature": Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Just links right now (the top two at Google):Manifesto of the Communist Party
Seems to be a little nicer reading format than...http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.htmlFaith (here and elsewhere) sure seems to think that communism is inherently evil. I think it is a high and noble concept, which runs counter to the baser instincts of humanity.Mooseps: I once again highlight one of the quotes from my "signature": Edited by Minnemooseus, : Left out a "("

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Jesus would be a socialist, that's for sure.I don't think communist is the right term.

Quoting my message 9 seems to be a good way to bump this topic. "Communism" has become a rather interesting part (albeit off-topic?) part of the "What's the beef with the ACLU?" topic. nemesis_juggernaut has just posted a substantial reply to Jar at message 114 of that topic. It would be nice if the "communist" material from that topic were brought to this topic.MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Change ID.

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose