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Author Topic:   Who won the Collins-Dawkins Debate?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 241 of 279 (383378)
02-07-2007 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by truthlover
02-07-2007 2:55 PM


All I have to say is this
In summary you have been using highly improbable events as justifications for your faith and the supernatural.
quote:
True, but not just one.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by truthlover, posted 02-07-2007 2:55 PM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Percy, posted 02-08-2007 9:31 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 242 of 279 (383381)
02-07-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by truthlover
02-07-2007 5:27 PM


quote:
I wasn't troubled by doubts at all anymore.
Deeply religious people who don't have any doubt at all scare the crap out of me.
That's the honest truth.
I just don't have any understanding whatsoever of that kind of certainty of belief.
I don't have that kind of surety of belief or confidence of my understanding of anything at all. Not a single thing do I think I understand or believe 100%, with no doubts at all.
How can I be completely sure, since I am a mere human with human limitations of imagination and intellect and ability to access information?
How can anybody be without any doubt, about anything?
quote:
Another argument that stuck with me was from Schraf. She said, let us give you a frontal lobotomy, and let's see how well your soul works then. I sat in a ditch next to a trail in the woods at some point back then and debated becoming an agnostic. (I could stay at Rose Creek Village as an agnostic, though it would be awkward.)
Well, damn, I'll have to remember to use that line again.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by truthlover, posted 02-07-2007 5:27 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by iceage, posted 02-07-2007 8:40 PM nator has replied
 Message 248 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 12:58 PM nator has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 243 of 279 (383390)
02-07-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by nator
02-07-2007 8:15 PM


Certainty
nator writes:
I don't have that kind of surety of belief or confidence of my understanding of anything at all...
How can I be completely sure, since I am a mere human with human limitations of imagination and intellect and ability to access information?
I have come to the conclusion that your above statement is the only honest position.
Jumping into the bed of any ole attractive theology that vies for your attention is really infidelity to the true unrevealed God. Let's just hope that God does not hold any grudges for those with misguided but strong convictions.
Which I suppose makes me paradoxically sure about one thing - The First Church of the Agnostic is really the only one true church.
Or maybe I am just jealous of those that know for absolutely sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by nator, posted 02-07-2007 8:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by nator, posted 02-07-2007 8:52 PM iceage has replied
 Message 246 by Kader, posted 02-08-2007 9:42 AM iceage has not replied
 Message 249 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 1:03 PM iceage has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 244 of 279 (383392)
02-07-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by iceage
02-07-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Certainty
quote:
Which I suppose makes me paradoxically sure about one thing - The First Church of the Agnostic is really the only one true church.
Oh wow.
You need to read this essay that my friend wrote a long time ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by iceage, posted 02-07-2007 8:40 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 245 of 279 (383448)
02-08-2007 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by nator
02-07-2007 8:08 PM


Re: All I have to say is this
Schraf writes:
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
This is extremely well put. Is it yours? Doesn't matter, I'm shamelessly stealing it anyway at the first opportunity.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nator, posted 02-07-2007 8:08 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 246 of 279 (383453)
02-08-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by iceage
02-07-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Certainty
The First Church of the Agnostic is really the only one true church.
Agnosticism is not a church...
I hope it will never be called a church neither...
A "movement" at best, but certainly not a church.

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 247 of 279 (383455)
02-08-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by nator
02-07-2007 8:52 PM


Re: Certainty
Thanks nator for the link. I very much enjoyed reading your friend's essay and found some additional insight.
Brad Weier writes:
In order to believe that the Bible, or the Koran, or the Sutras, or any ancient text is an absolute and literal description of reality is to ignore reality.
Just a note Kader
kader writes:
Agnosticism is not a church...
Sorry kader if that offended thee. How this....
"Agnosticism Is the One True Religion."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by nator, posted 02-07-2007 8:52 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 248 of 279 (383487)
02-08-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by nator
02-07-2007 8:15 PM


Deeply religious people who don't have any doubt at all scare the crap out of me.
Me, too. I didn't say I didn't have any doubts. I said I wasn't troubled by them, anymore. Some doubts are big enough to be troubling. Others are small enough that they don't worry you. "There's always a possibility that I might be wrong or even totally insane" is not the sort of doubt that one loses sleep over.
I just don't have any understanding whatsoever of that kind of certainty of belief.
There's a certainty of belief that makes it worth losing your life--or completely changing it. Such belief comes from inside a person, and it is very reassuring, even if there's always the "sure, of course I could be completely missing something and this could all be not true" admission that must be made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by nator, posted 02-07-2007 8:15 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by nator, posted 02-08-2007 5:16 PM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 249 of 279 (383492)
02-08-2007 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by iceage
02-07-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Certainty
Jumping into the bed of any ole attractive theology that vies for your attention is really infidelity to the true unrevealed God.
It's infidelity to the true God even if he's revealed. On this issue, we agree completely.
Let's just hope that God does not hold any grudges for those with misguided but strong convictions.
Which I suppose makes me paradoxically sure about one thing - The First Church of the Agnostic is really the only one true church.
And how likely is it, that if there is a revealed God that has judgments for beyond this life, that he'll accept, "Well, it really seemed pretty unknowable to me, so I just did whatever I thought was best without really looking that hard to see if you had any requirements or suggestions"?
The problem is, the First Church of the Agnostic has morals, commands, rules, and a way of life as well. Being a part of it is a lifestyle choice.
And if it turns out that God isn't unknowable, and maybe there's something inside or outside of you that you should have been listening to, then the First Church of the Agnostic will turn out not to be the one true religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by iceage, posted 02-07-2007 8:40 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by iceage, posted 02-08-2007 2:33 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 256 by nator, posted 02-08-2007 5:17 PM truthlover has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 250 of 279 (383514)
02-08-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by iceage
02-08-2007 10:29 AM


Re: Certainty
No offense taken at all

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by iceage, posted 02-08-2007 10:29 AM iceage has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 251 of 279 (383540)
02-08-2007 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by truthlover
02-08-2007 1:03 PM


Looking Hard
I glad we found some common ground, however....
truthlover writes:
And how likely is it, that if there is a revealed God that has judgments for beyond this life, that he'll accept, "Well, it really seemed pretty unknowable to me, so I just did whatever I thought was best without really looking that hard to see if you had any requirements or suggestions"?
Oh now that's a dig and I take offense.
Most confirmed agnostics I know spend more time and energy pondering the mysteries of life than the confirmed religious.
Being agnostic is not just being lazy and shrugging your shoulders. Being agnostic means that you use your God given talent and senses to constantly evaluate the evidence, and will not settle for a comfortable pew and spoon fed theology. The agnostic believes in expanding and learning and rejects stagnation, complacency and laziness.
Speaking of lazy.
Consider this, and be honest, how many Christians do you know have no clue how the bible was canonized? How many Christian are completely unaware of the problems that biblical textual analysis reveals? How many Christians are aware of the probable additions. How many Christians know of the borrowed myths. How many Christians have never heard of the hard stories in the Old Testament or the Cursing Psalms. There are many things avoided in Sunday School.
Now speaking of truth.
The agnostic rejects falsehood and untruth and value honesty.
However, within Christian circles I find an incredible tolerance for self-deception and error within their own sphere. I often listen to the Moody bible channel on the way to work. The radio preachers employ well known established logical fallicies with alarming frequency and no one in the flock calls their crap. They regularly use lies and deception to tend to the flock.
Even more moderate Christians ignore obvious falsehoods and fraud within their own midsts and take no initiative to actively condemn such transgressions.
As another example of this I have a somewhat interesting story. A while back I became aware of a charismatic group claiming Gemstones falling from Heaven and being delivered during meetings by angels.
When I watched several of their videos with a friend and said either this is the most important event in the last 2000 years of Christianity or this is outright fraud.
Now listen carefully. Being the extreme skeptic that I am, I did not immediately reject the notion that they were *not* telling the truth. True skepticism even rejects the harden skeptical knee jerk reaction.
I launched a unbiased investigation into their claims and wrote up my experience here, Gemstones from Heaven
This is an example of not being lazy or complacent.
However many of the Christians I know, even some that attend that church, don't believe it but just shrug their shoulders and go oh well!
Oh Well!!!! it is bloody fraud in the name of their precious lord! and they are indifferent?
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 1:03 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 3:26 PM iceage has not replied
 Message 253 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 3:32 PM iceage has not replied
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 252 of 279 (383568)
02-08-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by iceage
02-08-2007 2:33 PM


Re: Looking Hard
Oh now that's a dig and I take offense.
It was not a dig, but it was obviously very unfortunate wording (and thinking that produced that wording), and I apologize profusely. I actually paused for a moment when I wrote that about not looking very hard, because I am already aware that more agnostics/atheists than Christians put great thought into their belief.
But here's why I wrote it. I was simply addressing the thought behind your post, not any particular person, real or imagined.
The statement in your post was "Yes, and because there's no way to know anything for absolutely certain, then agnosticism should be the one true religion."
I was only addressing that thought and disagreeing with it. That thought is not the same, or even nearly the same, as, "If we look into it, and it looks like God is not knowable or has chosen not to reveal himself, then we ought to be agnostic. In fact, I'm so certain that's what you'll find, that I'll call agnosticism the one true religion."
I read a book once by William Law called something like A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life, and it addresses the fact that most Christians just cruise along through life with little effort. I am well aware that this is typical of Christians (way too typical of humans, in fact), and it is less typical of non-theists.
I hope that is a sufficient retraction of my dig. I did not mean to imply that any individual (agnostic or Christian) was looking insufficiently, and I apologize for writing in such a way that it sounded like I was. I readily admit that all you said in your post 251 about searching for truth is accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by iceage, posted 02-08-2007 2:33 PM iceage has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 253 of 279 (383573)
02-08-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by iceage
02-08-2007 2:33 PM


Re: Looking Hard
Oh Well!!!! it is bloody fraud in the name of their precious lord! and they are indifferent?
Yes, indifferent. It's maddening and embarrassing.
The main reason people are indifferent is because it happens every day. It's not against the law, so they don't go to jail for it, so they'll just do it again and again and again. After looking into a few hundred of those, you don't have any more moments of your precious life to waste checking on those things. I've followed up on numerous such stories, including one recently from someone I thought was honest. It was the only reason I was willing to waste more time asking about such a thing. At least I found out the guy wasn't honest.
I'm not indifferent, though. We oppose and expose those frauds pretty strenuously if we can find anyone who cares about what's true. Sometimes those people are hard to find.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by iceage, posted 02-08-2007 2:33 PM iceage has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 254 of 279 (383615)
02-08-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Percy
02-08-2007 9:31 AM


Re: All I have to say is this
quote:
This is extremely well put. Is it yours? Doesn't matter, I'm shamelessly stealing it anyway at the first opportunity.
As much as I would love to take credit for this phrase, I cannot.
I heard it first from Zhimbo, but I don't know if it is his or if he heard it from someone else.
I can't ask him, either, because he is currently napping.
A long, long night of writing last night for him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Percy, posted 02-08-2007 9:31 AM Percy has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 255 of 279 (383618)
02-08-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by truthlover
02-08-2007 12:58 PM


quote:
Me, too. I didn't say I didn't have any doubts. I said I wasn't troubled by them, anymore.
OK, now I understand better. That's not so scary.
In fact, this makes you and I very similar, since I am an agnostic.
quote:
Some doubts are big enough to be troubling. Others are small enough that they don't worry you. "There's always a possibility that I might be wrong or even totally insane" is not the sort of doubt that one loses sleep over.
Perhaps the difference is I doubt everything, and I am quite comfortable with such doubts, and you are only comfortable with certain doubts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by truthlover, posted 02-08-2007 12:58 PM truthlover has not replied

  
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