Socialism is legalized theft.

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did I say free food? Did I say free housing? Now you're putting words in my mouth. That's called the "Straw Man fallacy". All I advocated was that food, housing, and health care should be affordable for all workers. Right now, they're not. Do you disagree?

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Who decides what wage fits the job? if you say "the free market", you're wrong. The job market isn't free because there's a number of restraining factors on worker mobility. The job market isn't free, no more than the housing market is. Workers don't have the kind of choice that a free market requires. At best they have a kind of Hobson's choice.

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And you still haven't provided rationale for why workers DON'T deserve a livable wage. it's immoral for our society to be based on the backs of workers we won't even feed or house decently. When somebody does a job for us at a wage far less than they deserve, THAT's the legalized theft. We're stealing THEIR wages!

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It is not a right to have everything for a 'decent' price as you would say. no one keeps you in a job!you can quit. You wanna see not being able to have choice. check out a communist governmetn where refusal the work towardsd the will fo the state results in imprisionment, a train to siberia,or a bullet in your skull. Deserve? you DO NOT decide what a worker deserves. the capitalist gives what he is willing to. if the worker doensn't like it he can serach for a better job if he feels he can find one. THe Capitalist PROVIDES the job. it is not a right to have a job.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

the right to life does not mean you have the right to be as successful as your neighbor, or even have all your basic needs. it simply means you have the right to work to keep your life and better it without oppression from another individual or group.

dude. we should slow down.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

yes there is. no one forces you to have a job. you could go live in the woods and live off of shit.

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The more you post, the more you appear to be out of touch with the reality of the working person. I suspect you're some kind of young republican college student or something. or maybe you'd like to tell me how you worked hard for every penny you have? Look, get your head out of Ayn Rand and Rush Limbaugh's world of infinite capital and benevolent business leaders. The real world is one where the people you depend on the most get the least of your money, and business is largely a predatory affair.

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The people I depend on get the least of my money, its my money. I don't understand why they should get any of MY money. the worker is paid his wage and does not get a 'share' of the profits - he did not invest in the company and therefore should not reap any of the awards. And yes business is a predatory affair but it is a system of competition that yields profits and a healthier economy overall------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

man, you like h.g. wells a lot.Its not like i don't believe you. History is history, but the question i ask is it right, moral. To "pay off" the poor because you were successful and they weren't? Look, i think its very magnanimous to give to charity, however it is not a law. It is still your money and the government has no say - or shouldn't - on how you distribute it. Why would you support a system that is extortion and exploitation? I mean you certainly criticize capitalism for those qualities. Maybe, i just don't get the point.P.S. i intended this as a discussion of how socialism is immoral. While the characteristics of capitalism do bear on the subject i would like to discuss socialism rather than this just be an attack on capitalism.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

sorry. i didn't really have time to. Ill try to keep up.

I would like to point out that i am not rich. no one cleans my carptets, thank you. I am only interested in what is fair.btw: its reallly really hard to keep up b\c it's like me vs. 6 people so forgive me if i don't have time to reply. sorry.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

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Do explain what you mean by "true equality is justice."

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justice is fairness in all your relationships. That is, is it fair for the government to take a larger percentage of the rich minority's money than the rest of the people? I use Martin Luther King Jr.'s definition of a just and unjust law. A Just law is a law that affects all people equally. An unjust law is a law that the majority enforces upon the minority and not enforce upon itself.

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And who fed you when you were young? And how long would you last if a plague wiped all of humanity out bar yourself? We cooperate with others as a part of our existence. Think of some non-capitalist institutions, like, say, the family. Humanity wouldn't last very long if every single parent decided taking care of their children wasn't worth doing (what a sacrifice!). There are things beyond individual selfishness that make our fragile world go round. Cooperation is one of them.

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I apologize. To clarify, I do not think man should live outside of society, Man needs one another. Each man in a relationship has something to offer. The parent chooses to have a child it doesn't just happen. I believe that capitalism is more cooperative than socialism. In capitalism each man exchanges something for something voluntarily. In a socialist society, it is impossible to quit your job, or engage in a private dealing with another person without being prosecuted.

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No. By the "leveller" I mean an institution that understands that poverty brings social costs on the whole of society, and that it is worth doing something both from an economic and humanistic viewpoint, to prevent people from suffering. Have you heard of the French Revolution? Letting the poor eat cake didn't quite work out now did it? Of course, it might be a good idea to explain exploitation to you, but then I'd probably end up being called a Marxist.

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Please explain exploitation to me.

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I'd tell you the point, but you wouldn't understand, as you'd have to be familiar with Marx's Labour theory of surplus value (or more probably, I'd have to tell you what it is in agonising detail though flying over your nescient head). Secondly you'd have to figure out that socialism is not necessarily anticapital or antimarket. But I wouldn't want your brain to explode just yet. Thirdly, I'm not a socialist, so it's far too much trouble.
But if you're interested, you might try reading an introductory economics text book. Look out especially for the section on "externalities." If you're getting more adventurous, try the following list. But don't forget that introductory economics text!

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Here are introductory texts to theories of economic institutions. You'll notice that the reason that these institutions (including government) exist, is that they increase efficiency. It's a rather obvious reason once you think about it.

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thanks for the list i'll check it out. but in the mean time. I do wish to understand further so if you could try to explain it to me. ill try to understand, even if my head does explode.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

man. fuck. Im tired of this. You can say you won. I concede. I apologize. i might try again later but i can't keep responding to these things all day.------------------
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."