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Author | Topic: Will The Real God Please Stand Up? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Omnivorous Member Posts: 3985 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
My pleasure--the explanation brought back warm memories of an aging scholarly scamp who called Shakespeare "Big Bill" and Dylan "Big Bob."
He would have loved this place. Free Dr. Adequate! Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Greatest I am writes: Is this Spirit an it, a He, or a She?
The Holy Spirit is passive until you find it within yourself.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 296 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
It is emanating from God and carries His thoughts. In that sense you could call It a He, but I prefer to consider It more akin to telepathic thought and call it It. Like lightning needs the small trailer going up from the earth to contact the larger donward force, the conection to the Holy Spirit does not need but wants your small trailer. This is fueled by your desire.
RegardsDL
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined:
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Kuresu:
my motives? what are they? do you know? how can you be certain they are impure? is it because I reject christ, and make that plain as day that my motives are (or have to be) impure? Precisely! Kuresu:my motives are no more impure than your own. I see... I don't know, but you do? Kuresu:I seek to understand and ask questions. that is my motive. Questions are good. As long as they are genuine questions. You are just like I was... Defensive and proud! Not about to be manipulated. It is always better to debate an issue before settling it. I have made up my mind, because I did not first settle the issue. I was open to God. After he revealed Himself and proved Himself to me, I then, and only then, closed the door. How can I know your motives???It is no mystery Kuresu... I am a man, just like you. But you can only think like a man. And that is why you assume that I can only think like a man as well. You're projecting... I [b]do[/qs] know about men. But I also know about God. Not because I had the mind of God. but because he gave it to me by His Spirit when I kept my mid open to Him.
Is that possible? Consider what Paul had to say... 1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. It's like C.S. Lewis said... 'We are men, so we have inside information (about how men think)'. Napoleon said, "I know men. And Jesus Christ was no mere man.' Not that Napoleon is a great role model... but he understood men, and that is why he was able to lead them and defeat them. Who knows if he found the Lord in the end... Even he can be forgiven. All he had to do is finally admit his crimes to God with genuine Honesty. You can humiliate and defeat me because I am still just a man. But you cannot defeat my message because it is the power of God. that is why you want me to offer my thoughts, without quotes included or other witnesses. That makes no sense... who comes to court without witnesses? Jesus spoke about this very thing: John 5:31 "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid. 33 "You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. 36 "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. It's ok Kuresu... All of us have sinned, and hidden from God like the first Son of God, Adam. It is not something we must be ashamed of in the sense of hiding. Hiding is the only thing that will condemn us. In a sense, it is not even our fault. Adam brought in on us all. We were raised in an evil world. How could we be anything other than evil? That is the natural man in all of us; a slave to his sin. That is why Jesus died for us... In our place. To satisfy judgement, and provide mercy. Like a judge finding you guilty, but writing the check for your fine Himself. Quite a noble sacrifice on His part. A kind gesture... Forgiving ignorance and educationg at the same time. Now we can no longer claim ignorance. If we refuse Him, it is because of our impure motives. Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. We have the judgement of God hanging over us. Will we accept His sacrifice or insist on paying the price ourselves? We needed someone to deliver us, and God provided His Son. A second Son of God who overcomes the natural lusts. We cannot do it ourselves. We could never repair what has been undone. Not as individuals or as a community. The world is coming undone. Who will stop it? I know a lot of the stuff I say sounds rediculous. Here is what Paul said to other Christians about it... Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. And He will reveal it to you as well Kuresu, if you ask the questions of Him with a genuine interest in the answers. I can't prove it to you. Only He can. Then it will not be a matter of believing me... I don't blame you for not believing just stupid me. That is just wise on your part. But your anger and cynicism is not healthy. You must find the strength to trust, and become a real man. A real man who is not to proud to be honest deep inside where it hurts. If you will bear the pain of that cross for a moment, and concede to Him. He will open your eyes and begin to answer your questions. Slowly at first. It's real Kuresu... not some phony faith... And you learn it like learning anything real. By considering that the teacher may know something you don't. By keeping your mind and heart open to Him. In todays world we are told to have an open mind to everything, and shut our minds to any exclusive claims to truth. What contradictions and lies! What an exclusive claim in itself! A doctrine of devils... I am not God. But I am in Him. I am just a light. A mirror (though a broken one I admit). A staff in His hand. A servant. A poor and lowly disciple of Christ. A despised lamp among men. A threatening turncoat. One who has abandoned humanity for God. I am salt, that spices up the muddyness of the lost. I am only trying to get your attention to point you to the one who you can trust... Ask Him... Now that I have your attention, will you consider believing that? You don't have to answer me... You only have to acknowledge it in yourself. God sees our heart... Go find Him for yourself, so that you will understand and test all these words on your own. It's not about blind faith... it's about 'understanding' and 'seeing'. Anything less is not genuine! Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3749 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Rob, you should start to speak for yourselve rather than quote the bible endlessly.
It doesn't help in a debate.It doesn't turn anyone to you cause. It doesn't make you look intelligent. It isn't a worldwide accepted truth it is faith. So using your faith as a truth is an extrem position held by the most violent and destructive people I've known/heard of. Like terrorist for example or people that would burn churches/synagogues/mosque etc. Horrible act of violence have been commited by people who took there faith so seriously it became an obesession, it became TRUTH. Your faith isn't truth Rob. Now a healthy faith is one that doesn't acknowledge itself to be the truth. So I wonder by know, does all you have in your arsenal is bible quote ?Do you even have idea of your own ? So do you think it is a possibility that god might be Loki ?If not why ? And do not use the bible to defend you point or else I'd have to start quoting walt disney books to prove to you that God is actually Mickey mouse. Ps : Quoting the bible to make a point with a non-christian is futile.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days) Posts: 2297 Joined:
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Kader's statement of faith:
So using your faith as a truth is an extrem position held by the most violent and destructive people I've known/heard of. Like terrorist for example or people that would burn churches/synagogues/mosque etc. Horrible act of violence have been commited by people who took there faith so seriously it became an obesession, it became TRUTH. Your faith isn't truth Rob. Kader:Now a healthy faith is one that doesn't acknowledge itself to be the truth. Really now?... do you consider your statements of faith (your quote above) to be true? That is why the fairness doctrine and other laws against Christianity are coming... Because the proponents of such believe their own contradictory lies. And they are willing to silence Christians and oppose churches, Not with physical violence I concede, but with spiritual violence and domination of ideas. Can plurlaism and relativism dominate the landscape... without becoming the 'exclusive truth' in and of themselves? 'The West is on the verge of collapse, because it has lost it's power to reason.'
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
double post
Edited by Archer Opterix, : double post.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3620 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Phat (OP): I want to start a semi humorous, semi serious discussion One year the young staff at the mental hospital decided to throw a Halloween party. They invited the patients and started talking to them about fun ideas for costumes. The patients complained. The depressed woman said 'Why do we have to do this? Just leave me alone to die.' The delusional man wanted to know why no invitation had been extended to the purple rhinoceras living in his toilet. The self-abusive woman had an idea for a costume that involved cutting off her head and carrying it to the party under her arm. The paranoid man said 'What are you really trying to do? I see through your deception!' 'Look, you guys,' said the staff members, 'this is supposed to be fun. You say and do the same things every day. We're always asking you to work on your problems. This will be a nice change. Everyone can just lighten up and forget hospital stuff and enjoy themselves for a while.' The night of the party, the patients came dressed in their costumes as ghosts and clowns and hobos and everything... and had a miserable time. The depressed woman wanted to die, the delusional man missed his rhinoceras, the self-abusive woman was mad at the staff for refusing to cut off her head, and the paranoid man saw ominous signs of malevolence everywhere. Everyone acted the same old way, same old patterns, saying the same crazy things. The staff was disappointed but not really surprised. They took a few pictures, then fed the patients and sent them back to their rooms after 20 minutes. Only after the patients left did a real party start. ___ Archer All species are transitional.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2535 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
After he revealed Himself and proved Himself to me, I then, and only then, closed the door. and now the problem is clear. you think you've found the answer, and so, you look nowhere else, you turn nowhere else, and you listen to no one else. I don't claim to know your specific motives. What I do know is that you are human, like me. that means, that neither of our motives can be more impure than the other. I never claimed that your motives were impure. In fact, you probably think they are pure--you're converting for christ! notice I say probably--because I do not know, I can only speculate. you went far beyond speculation.
Questions are good. As long as they are genuine questions
how can they be good when you've closed the door to any future learning? oops.
But you can only think like a man
which is no better, or worse, than you can do. YOu do not have the voice of God. Just because you know about him does not mean you can think on his terms. I know about John Paul II. He proved his existence to me. Can I think like him? Not a chance. At least, not in the manner you mean. You actually believe you can think like God, because you know of him and about him. tough luck--you can't. He ain't you--which you admitted. you are a man, nothing more, nothing less. Its nothing to be ashamed about. we are all men (except the women, of course, they're just wierd )
All of us have sinned, and hidden from God like the first Son of God, Adam. It is not something we must be ashamed of in the sense of hiding. Hiding is the only thing that will condemn us. why am I ashamed of sin, when its a concept I don't believe in? It's not a ploy of mine to get rid of responsibility, its an idea that has zero bearing on my life. I don't believe in the genesis story. I don't believe in God. So then, how can I be hiding from something I don't believe in? tell me rob, do you hide from the monster in the closet? of course not--there isn't a monster there. let's make this clear--if there's a god out there, I am not hiding from you (all).
Like a judge finding you guilty, but writing the check for your fine Himself. Quite a noble sacrifice on His part. A kind gesture... Forgiving ignorance and educationg at the same time. Now we can no longer claim ignorance. If we refuse Him, it is because of our impure motives. God forgives those who aks for penance. Why then, does he need his son to die? Why do I need someone to pay my fine for me? I am not that weak. I also notice you use the word "kind". As in, well, that was . . .nice. . .shouldn't you be jumping up and down for joy because you're so weak you needed someone to pay your fine? So much for having a high opinion of the guy. And if he forgives us of ignorance, we lose it? That's what you claim--that we can no longer rely on ignorance to get us out because we know something-his sacrifice, i guess. now, how does refusing him translate to having impure motives? I don't reject him because I don't like him. I don't need him. or rather, his sacrifice. How am I to learn something if I'm forgiven at every turn? Oops, I lied. well, god forgives. oops, I killed. well, god forgives. oops, I stole. well, god forgives. no wonder christianity can seem so depraved--you all don't learn from your mistakes, because you don't have to pay the consequences because of the death of your prophet 2,000 years ago! why won't Hovind learn he's made a mistake? my guess--he's thinking god will forgive him. tell me, what happened when you stole a cookie from the cookie jar as a child? you got scolded, no? what if you hadn't? what if everytime, your mother/father just said "well, boys will be boys"? that's what Christ is doing for you! He's the mother/father saying "boys will be boys". And you expect me to follow your religion because of this sacrifice that gets me off the hook? Sorry, I've got a higher moral ground than that. Tell me. Why do you keep your ears and eyes closed when you say genuine questions are good? Do you expect me to give up the higher moral ground because of some sacrifice that lets me off the hook?
a broken one I admit
then why hasn't god fired you? since you seem to have such a crappy job performance in his service, and in fact might be hurting his prophet, why hasn't he fired you? And something else became clear--Forgiving ignorance and educationg
Jesus forgave you for your education? that's rich. Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5975 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
kuresu writes: why am I ashamed of sin, when its a concept I don't believe in? Are you ashamed when you do something wrong? Have you ever felt a tiny bit of guilt about anything? I hope you have. Remorse is a very redeeming emotion. If you have not ever felt it, then you are exempt, and unusual. Most of us have hurt someone and felt guilty at least once before. If you have, you have felt shame at your 'sin'.
no wonder christianity can seem so depraved--you all don't learn from your mistakes, because you don't have to pay the consequences because of the death of your prophet 2,000 years ago! You don't believe that now do you? That christians somehow get off the hook, while everyone else is screwed? Do you think all christians get to 'heaven' and all good people of other faiths go to 'hell'? The same rules apply to all of us; we must follow our conscience, if we do 'wrong' make amends and improve. If there is a Christ who came from God, He got EVERYONE off the hook, which DOES NOT mean a free pass to anyone who says 'I love Jesus' and continues to do 'wrong'. If Hovind is labouring under that delusion as well, then you are two peas in a pod. He isn't guaranteed anything either, without 'good' actions. And here your beloved example of 'sin' vs 'right and wrong' comes into play. The man definitely did something wrong, a crime. Did he sin? How the heck do I know? That is between him, and God. As to questioning; you seem to parrot the ideas of many here. I would like you to speak in your own words as well. Don't worry about the Kent Hovinds out there. Go google Mother Teresa, Father Miguel Pro, or Damien deVeuster.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Rob writes: Now let me get all of this straight. You are here at the town meeting representing God as you understand Him, am I right?
I am not God. But I am in Him. I am just a light. A mirror (though a broken one I admit). A staff in His hand. A servant. A poor and lowly disciple of Christ. A despised lamp among men. A threatening turncoat. One who has abandoned humanity for God. I am salt, that spices up the muddyness of the lost. I am only trying to get your attention to point you to the one who you can trust... Ask Him... Allow me then to give you one scripture to chew on while our meeting continues. NIV writes: Phil 2:3- Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. In THe Message transliteration it reads: 1-4If you've gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care” then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don't push your way to the front; don't sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don't be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand. Sometimes, sitting quietly and listening to others is a better testimony of Christ in you than standing on the table and attempting to correct everyone!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
kuresu writes: I never get off the hook. that's what Christ is doing for you! He's the mother/father saying "boys will be boys". The scrip that popped into my head was NIV writes: I would imagine that IF God exists, He delights in everyone and not just those of us who believe that we know Him. Proverbs 3:12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father [a] the son he delights in. Now....may this town meeting continue? I see that Sophia is pacing back and forth and The spaghetti monster looks a bit pasty faced.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2535 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
realize this: Rob is arguing that only in Christ do we find salvation. If turn turn from him, that means we're ignorant.
I find his version of christianity stupid. there are many good christians--jar, you, phat, percy, mr. austin . . . I do feel remorse. Trust me. I don't even like skipping class (unless its one that I absolutely hate and only need a C in, but even then . . .). But don't confuse guilt with sin. Without religion, you don't have sin. I don't have religion. I don't have sin. If I implied that I thought that only christians got off the hook and everyone else is doomed to hell, I implied wrongly. That means that I'd be going to hell! (granted, I don't believe in such a place, so . . .) I think the rest of your post might be better in my new thread on why we do the "right" thing. as a quick answer--i believe in learning from your mistakes. I don't believe you should get off the hook with a "free pass". Quite frankly though, that's what many seem to use Christ for, and it seems that some teach that that is what Christ is.looking forward to your reply in my thread. If I'm parroting others, I honestly don't know who. My guess is you think I have ideas similar with the three you listed below. I've only heard of mother teresa and what she's done. I've never read any of their stuff. Doesn't mean I've not been influenced by them. Just because I haven't read the Bible doesn't mean it's influenced me. Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2535 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
I'm actually going to move for a temporary adjournment of the meeting--the time we come back shall be decided after this movement passes. My reason? Arguments other than those in support/against the candidates have taken over the thread.
I apologize for this. I'll chat with you about the rest
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Kader Member (Idle past 3749 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Really now?... do you consider your statements of faith (your quote above) to be true? No, that was my opinion.
That is why the fairness doctrine and other laws against Christianity are coming... where you witht the ones screaming the end of the world is coming back then roughly 7 years ago? Because they believed it pretty hard. And guess what, the world didn't end.
Because the proponents of such believe their own contradictory lies. And they are willing to silence Christians and oppose churches, Not with physical violence I concede, but with spiritual violence and domination of ideas. Humm I'm not sure I understood what you meant. But I just have to say this :Your faith is not the truth. It might be to you, but if your a sensible man, you must accept that you might be wrong. And as for what you said. I'm not sure what you mean by silencing churches. Do teaching evolution in science class is part of silencing churches ? EDIT : To stay on topic, all im saying is you cannot deny other the right to have faith in something else. Because faith isn't BACKED UP by any hard scientific evidence. It is something we believe to be true, but it is something that can BE WRONG Do not impose your belief on others.Do not think your belief overrule science. Do not impose your idea of right and wrong to everyone else. Do not judge others by what they believe in. You have faith in jesusI have faith in humanity We see things very differently. But I accept that you might be right, I just find the evidence lacking. (it is a personal choice). And if you refuse to accept that your faith is not an absolute truth, then you can get into the extremist box. Edited by Kader, : No reason given.
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