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Author Topic:   Reliable history in the Bible
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 106 of 300 (378927)
01-22-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Nimrod
01-19-2007 8:55 AM


My exact words!
Silberman (a co-author with Finkelstein) calls this Finkelstein theory.....
"Invisible Israelites" (Secrets of The Bible)
Rejecting the idea of a peasant revolt for the c1200 transformation, and not acepting evidence of a struggle between Israelites and Canaanites , pastoralists and settled population, feudal lords and peasants.Finkelstein goes far beyond the "chronological limits" most accept.He traced settlement patterns over the canaanite hill country over hundreds of years.The demogrphic revolution of the Early Iron Age isnt to be seen in isolation.The issue of the Israelite settlement are connected closely to much much earlier developments.
Incase some people missed it Ill Quote a very specific part of my near-quote of Silberman (I will find HIS exact quote later, I only roughly quoted him so I could past more quoted paragraphs and not attract the attention of fanatical copyright holders who wont like me quoting more than a few paragraphs)
Rejecting the idea of a peasant revolt for the c1200 transformation, and not acepting evidence of a struggle between Israelites and Canaanites.............
My honor defended!
Edit: And I wont fix my typo's because I want an unmolested quote of what I said.Please not that the post I am responding to is the actual post to check out.Also note that I havnt edited it since CA attacked me.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 300 (378929)
01-22-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 12:55 PM


Re: My exact words!
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
... Ill Quote a very specific part of my near-quote of Silberman (I will find HIS exact quote later....
Since this is the Bible Accuracy forum and the topic is about reliable history, maybe you could clarify your methodology:
What exactly is a "near-quote"? And how does it differ from an "exact quote"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Nimrod, posted 01-22-2007 12:55 PM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 108 of 300 (378942)
01-22-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 12:55 PM


Exact quotes.
(first of all Ringo, I was quoting MYSELF in the post #106 responce to CA, and it wasnt something I Quoted from Silberman.I was simply pointing out Finkelsteins views as outlined by Silberman, read my initial post and you wilI see I only highlighted what I was quoting."Invisible Israelites" was a quote because it had quotation marks, though i ddint highlight it.)
Here is the exact book I refered to (same ISBN#)
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Bible-Archaeology-Magazine....
Click on "See Larger Image" under small picture of book cover (its the dust cover)in upper left corner.
It says...
"Archaeology Magazine" (top)
Then shows a picture of Jerusalem (middle)
"Secrets Of The Bible" (bottom half)
"Introduction by Neil Asher Slberman" (near bottom)
"Contributions From Richard Horsley, Israel Finkelstein , Eric M. Meyers, Sandra Scham, And Others"
(extreme bottom)
Now from booklease see page 37-46.
Who Were The Israelites
p.37
That is the title by By Neil Asher Silberman.
Get to page 44 and the title (which starts a seperate section which last for 2 whole pages till the conclusion on page 46) says.....
Invisible Israelites
Skipping a paragraph down (the one I never quoted will be skipped yet again,Ringo)....
page 44-45
"As recent archaeological surveys have indicated, the hill country of Canaan was thickly settled and dotted with fortified cities, towns, and hamlets in the period beginning around 1750 BC.Yet the surveys also showed that around 1550 B.C. , toward the end of what is called the Middle Bronze IIC period, the settled population in the hill country declined dramatically.During the succeeding Late Bronze Age (1550-1200), while the large cities along the coast and in the major valleys continued to flourish, more than 90% of the permanent settlment sites in the hill country were abandoned and the few surviving sites became much smaller in size.But that is not to say that the hill country of Cannan was empty.Far from it.according to Finkelstein, the people who would late become Israelites were already there.
His basic argument, put simply, is that the model of pastoral nomads settlein down and farming, long regarded as the main avenue of human progress, was always something of a two-way street.While enlightenment thinkers and early-twentieth-century archaeologists pointed to the economic and social conditions that prompted pastoralists to become farmers, they neglected to think about the kinds of conditions that might encourage the reverse.Such was precisely what happened among the Canaanite population of the hill country, according to Finkelstein, at the end of the Middle Bronze Age.Population pressure, competition for scarce agricultural land in this rugged region, or perhaps even political chance in the administration of the canaanite city-staes caused a shift in the balance between farmers and pastoralists...............others-perhaps the majority,according to Finkelstein--may have adopted a new,wandering way of life.
These hill-country farmers-turned-herdsmen(almost invisible to archaeologists when compared to populations that built permanent houses) were able to establish a stable, alternative way of life on the desert fringe.For two or three centuries they lived in symbiosis with the settled populations of the large cities along the coasts and in the major valleys.........It was only when the Canaan city-state system finally broke down completely and its agricultural surplus evaporated in the great upheavals of the thirtennth cntury B.C. that the life of the hill-country Canaanites shifted again.
Here is what Israel Finkelstein said about the 55,000-65,000 Bedouin in Palestine during 1917-1948.
"The population left almost no material remains,however;without contemporary, documentary evidence,we would not know of its existence"
Biblical Archaeology Review 1986 12/4 pages 46-53
The Iron Age Sites in the Negev Highlands-Military Fortresses or Nomads Settling Down
Again, Im not here to agree with Finkelstein on everything. Im just taking out data. Whether they agree or disagree with me, I still am interested in data. We can all think for ourselves.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminAsgara, : changed long link to fix page width

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 Message 106 by Nimrod, posted 01-22-2007 12:55 PM Nimrod has not replied

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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 109 of 300 (378944)
01-22-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
01-22-2007 1:13 PM


See post 97 and 106.
I was quoting myself in 106.
It refered to my summary of Silberman in his first paragraph under the section head "Invisible Israelites".
I never highlighted (in #97) it nor did I put it in quotation marks.
Again, post #106 was in the context of me defending my own words.I had to highlite my own words to prove I wasnt twisting Finkelsteins views (as if anybody here thinks Finkelstein believes in the Conquest).

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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 300 (378953)
01-22-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 1:53 PM


Re: Exact quotes.
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
(first of all Ringo, I was quoting MYSELF in the post #106 responce to CA, and it wasnt something I Quoted from Silberman.I was simply pointing out Finkelsteins views as outlined by Silberman, read my initial post and you wilI see I only highlighted what I was quoting."Invisible Israelites" was a quote because it had quotation marks, though i ddint highlight it.)
Even if that paragraph is in English - and I highly doubt that it is - it doesn't answer the question.
I asked what a "near-quote" is and how it differs from an "exact quote".
It has nothing to do with any Silberman/Finkelstein controversy. It has nothing to do with whom you quoted. It has nothing to do with highlighting or non-highlighting. It has nothing to do with quotation marks or non-quotation marks or quotation non-marks.
I'm just asking what a "near-quote" is, according to you, and how it differs from an "exact quote".
We can only assess the quality of your research if we understand your terminology. (Being able to understand a simple question would testify to your reading comprehension too. )

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Nimrod, posted 01-22-2007 4:39 PM ringo has replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 111 of 300 (378993)
01-22-2007 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
01-22-2007 2:34 PM


Scratch out "near-quote"
Replace it with *summary*.
Though it was actually a paraphrase (that could almost pass as a quote in 75% of the parts).
Call it a sneaky way to avoid getting spanked by overly-zealous copyright fanatics. (heck, I ended up linking to its Amazon page... they should be happy)
Then keep in mind that I DID mention (in my "near-quote"/paraphrase/plagiarism) that Finkelstein did not accept the Conquest.
Happy? (I almost think saying "happy" on an EVC forum is oxymoronic to say the very least)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 01-22-2007 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 01-22-2007 5:13 PM Nimrod has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 300 (379014)
01-22-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 4:39 PM


Re: Scratch out "near-quote"
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
Scratch out "near-quote". Replace it with *summary*.
Fair enough.
I'm a stickler because "near-quote" sounds a lot like "I'm quoting Silberfinkel but I'm changing the parts I don't like."
We have enough problems with quote-mining. We don't need to invent new methods of misquoting.
Either it's a quote or it's not.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Nimrod, posted 01-22-2007 5:56 PM ringo has replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 113 of 300 (379027)
01-22-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
01-22-2007 5:13 PM


Thanks.
I understand your confusion.
When I said "I only roughly quoted him" in 106, that was a mistake.
Not because I didnt roughly quote him, but because I presented it (in #97) as my own words. I forgot (while typing #106) that I presented his first paragrapgh (under "Invisible Israelites" in #97)as my own summary and not a paraphrase(which it actually was).
It became in my own interest (in 106)to quote my summary (presented as such though it was actually a paraphrase) to prove that I wasnt saying Finkelstein believed the Conquest (as I was being accused of).
That lead me to say "near-quote" and the like.
BOTTOM LINE: Nothing I higlighted or put in quotation marks was presented as Silbermans(or Finkelsteins) views.Though something I did not (present as a quote) actually was a "near-quote". (EDIT ALERT! I meant to say "Nothing was put in quotation that wasnt their exact words"-shesh)
(off topic but I want to beat this a little more)
#1
Silberman is the editor of Archaeology magazine.As mainstream and credible as you can get.Google it and find out the foundational support it recieves.
#2
He(Silberman) and Finkelstein have co-authored best selling books together.
Conclusion-
Silberman wouldnt mistate Finkelsteins work or views.
(Finkelsteins absolute conclusions arent to be taken as *fact* though his data should be.He has his own ideological views, which dont hold a high view of earlier Biblical books.Plus many Jews, especially secular, really dont like the idea of a Conquest as described in the Bible.It will really hurt their case when looking in the context of the 1948-20XX political situation with Palestinians.So many will be happy to nudge their support for much of the POST-Conquest Biblical history , but not the Conquest.It is a bias that has colored many conclusions with regards to their interpretation of the archaeological data.)
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 114 of 300 (379037)
01-22-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 5:56 PM


Re: Thanks.
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
(off topic but I want to beat this a little more)
Since I'm giving out free advice today: When trying to alleviate confusion, don't ramble on and on and on and on and on about things the confusee didn't question.

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6268 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 115 of 300 (379064)
01-22-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Nimrod
01-22-2007 12:07 AM


Re: Then why.....
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
....were many of the most important Conquest cities destroyed in a single year (1550)archaeologically and why did the population drop 95% in the EXACT place where the Israelites conquered?
This type of argument by rhetorical innuendo is pathetic garbage and deserves zero respect. Far better that you focus on why. "in a single year (1550)archaeologically" an unevidenced God would lead an unevidenced Exodus on a route that avoided an unevidenced Philistine threat.
Edited by ConsequentAtheist, : formatting

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Replies to this message:
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Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 116 of 300 (379153)
01-23-2007 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ConsequentAtheist
01-22-2007 7:37 PM


Good direction.
I can assure you that the major Conquest cities named (in the Bible) were destroyed (in the archaeological record), but you raise other equally important issues....
A-The issue of cities that were clearly stated to have not been conquered (or cities lost after they were conquered).
B-Cities that clearly are ruled by non-Israelite's between 1550 and the 1200-monarchy record.
C-First, we need to establish if they existed.
Lets start with the Philistine issue.
The singular word "Philistine" was mentioned 35 times.All 35 of these very specific people were in (or after) the book of Samuel."Philistines" were mentioned over 300 times.The vast majority (all but about 15)were during or after the Sea People invasions (the invasions that included the Philistines) of around 1175 BCE.The very specific and frequent references to Philistine's started around Judges chapter 16 which was around 1170 at the earliest (most place it closer to 1120 I think, but I prefer 1170 based on strict dates added up and counted back).That is to be expected.
Of the 15-16 less specific and highly infrequent references to Philistines pre-1170...
1 is in Genesis 10 (we can ignore that as few people can understand the primeval period,Im not even sure if I do)
Another 5-6 are in Genesis 20-26.
Those are anachronisms (or the actual name) that refer to an old national tribe in the Negev region(somewhere around there).They arent the people we are looking at, so lets not worry about that.
Aside from those references,there are then 9 references to the Philistines pre-1170.Exodus 13:17, 23:31, Joshua 13:2, 13:3,Judges 3:3, 3:31, 10:6 , 10:7, and 10:11.
We will look at every verse then we will look at the specific town's mentioned pre-1170.
First lets look at the 2 Exodus verses
13:17And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
23:31And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
These are geographical locations.This is like us refering to the "Hudson Bay in 15,000 BCE" even though nobody called it that 15,000 years ago because Henry Hudson wasnt alive then.The Redactor would have called this geographical location just what he did.Because it makes sense!
(we will get to the other scriptural references to "Philistines" later along with other place names)
Now, as for the actual city's:Ashkelon , Ashdod, Gaza , Gath , and Ekron; we will look at their scriptural references pre-1170BCE.
Ashkelon was mentioned in Judges 1:18
Ashdod in Joshua 11:22, 13:3 , 15:46, 15:47
Gath in Joshua 11:22
Ekron in Joshua 13:3 15:11, 15:45, 15:46 , 15:47 and Judges 1:18
Gaza in Joshua 10:41, 11:22, 15:47 , and Judges 1:18
These 5 cities mentioned have something in common with 6 of the 7 other Israelite cities (Jerusalem, Megiddo, Sidon, Gezer, Hazor, Shechem etc.) mentioned in the Amarna letters (and other sources):they were free of Israelite bondage (the Canaanites of Shechem are a slightly complicated issue,but more on them and Lachish later) and infact survived the Conquest(or repopulated after it).
Judges
1:21And the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that inhabited Jerusalem...
1:27Neither did Manasseh drive out the inhabitants of Bethshean and her towns, nor Taanach and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Ibleam and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns: but the Canaanites would dwell in that land.
1:29Neither did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites that dwelt in Gezer...
3:1Now these are the nations which the LORD left .....
3:3Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.
(This tight abbreviated quote covers Gezer, Megiddo, Jerusalem, and Sidon. Hazor and Shechem are covered in other Biblical spots, but not specifically mentioned in a spot like this.)
Most other references were in Joshua 13-19 (the part describing potential land alotments and tribal rights when/if areas were conquered(Ill quote them later).
The anarchronistic Philistine label for the cities makes all the sense in the world (we do it all the time in our history books), but did these named cities exist in 1550BCE?
It is an excellent way to test the Biblical text.
Lets look at the Anchor Bible dictionary.
Anchor Bible Dictionary
Ashdod
An important Philistine city mentioned in several passages in the Bible....
A.Textual references
The people of ashdod are first mentioned in Ugaritic, both in cuneiform and alphabetic texts from the 14th-13th centuries B.C. These texts deal mainly with Ashdod textile merchants......The Ashdod merchants living in ugarit... bear mostly W-Semitic names...
Although Ashdod was assigned to the tribe of Judah (Josh 15:47), it does not seem to have been conquered by the Israelites....
B.Excavations
...
1: Middle Bronze Period
....
The pottery is mostly of the 2nd half of the 17th century B.C. indicating the fortified city was built during the early part of the 15th (Hyksos) dynasty....
...some early black-on-red pottery testifies to contact with Cyprus.
...
The pottery, including some cypriot imports, dates from the time between MBIII and LB1.
2:Late Bronze Age
...Bichrome war now appears in qunatity and the Cypriot pottery import grows
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Ashdod
In the Late Bronze Age,Ashdod was a prominent commercial center
The city did infact exist in 1550 and it thrived well through the Late Bronze age.No 95% population reduction here.
Joshua 13
1Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed
2This is the land that yet remaineth: all the borders of the Philistines, and all Geshuri,
3From Sihor, which is before Egypt, even unto the borders of Ekron northward, which is counted to the Canaanite: five lords of the Philistines; the Gazathites, and the Ashdothites, the Eshkalonites, the Gittites, and the Ekronites; also the Avites:
Next city
Anchor Bible Dictionary
Ashkelon
...
The City has a long and eventful history,stretching from at least the latte part of the 4th millenium.Its biblical significance begins in the Conquest narratives as one of the cities of the Philistine pentapolis (Josh 13:3).....
..the first historical attestation of the name Ashkelon appeared in the Egyptian execration Texts , in which ashkelon wa vilified as an enemy of Egypt.The city was mentioned in both the Berlin and Brussels texts...
..massive ramparts surrounding the city was constructed during the MB....
During the LB Ashkelon was firmly under the control of the Egyptian pharoah.Ashkelons king, Widia , sent at least 7 letters to Akhenaten's court at El Amarna, (EA 320-326, 370), in which he promised loyalty and quantities of food, drink , oil, grain, and oxen for the Pharoahs troops.In another less cordial context, however, the ruler of Jerusalem , Abdi Heba , revealed a plot involving Ashkelon , Gezer, and Lachish, to supply provisions to the Egyptian kings enemies, the Habiru (EA 287).
Interesting.We have Cypriot contact and like Gath (soon to be covered), there is a leader with an Indo-European name. Though the ethnic similarities to the later Philistines arent the reason for the anachronistic references to "Philistine" cities (other more common and obvious reasons are), it is interesting.
Equally interesting is the references to highland cities rom the Israelite Conquest:Jerusalem and Lachish.Plus Gezer.Though all the other Amarna-letter cities (with what seems like fairly-clear Canaanite or non-Israelite leaders, including Gezer and Jerusalem)have what you would expect from the Bible, Lachish is the only city in the Bible where there is no mention of Israelites loosing control after the Conquest.Though is isnt mentioned after Joshua 15:39 (till after Israelite monarchy)around 1550BCE.
It no huge suprize.The Bible depicts the Israelites during the time of the Judges following the Conquest as subservient to the surrounding nations and living in tents (Jgs 20:8; 1 Sm 4:10, 13:2).
There is another highland area not known (but based around Hebron) with a leader named Shuwardata.It is from him that we are introduced to a leader of one of the most interesting Israelite towns that Canaanites rule:Shechem.
(Abdi-Heba is the Jerusalem leader)
Biblical Archaeologist
Feburary 1960
It is Shuwardata and Abdi-Heba who introduce us to Labayu.Neither has any use for him.Shuwardata writes after Labayu's death that the threat of labayu is mitigated, but that Abdi-Heba ha become another Labyu(280:30-35).This must have been a stinging condemnation!Abdi-Heba, on the other hand, asks rhetorically whether the king would have his vassal do as Labayu has done, "who gave Shechem to the 'Apiru."Once again , the view which sees the 'Apiru as an attacking force has been inclined to tret this quite literally and see Shechem as one of Labayus cities which he gave to the 'Apiru as their camp.(the term here has a determinative sign used with names of countries), that is, to make it rebellious to the king.In that case, shechem was labayu's headquarters, and the evidence for heavy Canaanite population there, which current excavation will hopefully clarify, is explained.
....
Zimreda of Lachish, on the other hand, has become "smitten by slaves who had become 'Apiru." Here is one further evidence that 'Apiru has the specific reference of outlaw with reference to the Egyptian lordship.
Shechem was an interesting town.
Canaanite but also allied to the stateless people around them (mostly Israelites).
People always wonder if Shechem was conquered in the Conquest (they always assume the Conquest was 1200 BCE and then assume not).
Biblical Archaeologist
Feb 1963
page 3
..Shechem was ocupied by either Canaanites or Isralites,or both.
page 10
Shechem appears neither in the lists of cities destroyed by the invading Israelites nor among those too strong for them to conquer.Nevertheless we may assume from Joshua 24 that, by the end of the period of the Conquest, Shechem was considered to be Israelite territory.
....
The question remains, how did Shechem become an Israelite city? we can only assume.. an Israelite infiltration of the city...without a resort to force of arms
The same biblical archaeologist articel goes on to mention that Gall pointed out that Abimelech was only half-Shechemite.
Another commentary snip
Historical Geography of the Holy Land
George A Turner
He mentions the "half-Canaanite Abimelech" of Biblical Shechem.
These are extremely interesting conslusions considering everybody quoted doesnt think the israelites emerged before 1200 BCE. Just from the internal Biblical text, they know that Shechem was perhaps Canaanite controled.And they wonder if it was conquered.
If they knew the conquest was from 1550 then they wouldnt wonder.I didnt check the anchor Bible dictionary but listen to this...(and this author makes it VERY clear that the Joshua Conquest was in 1200BCE, he doesnt even consider that there is any other possibility)
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
During the second half of the Hyksos period (M.B. IIC, ca.1650-1550 B.C.)a heavy "cyclopean" wall was erected around the city (Wall A),just outside the earthen embankment(C)....30 feet high.
...At the time wall A was erected, the courtyard complex was abandoned,and a great fortress-temple (migdAl) was built in its place.The Migdals stone podium survives as ahuge block of masonry,50 by 40 "long" or "sacred" cubits, and the walls of the cella are 10 long cubits thick (about 26 by 21 by 5 m, 85 by 70 by 17 ft.)Towers on each side of the entry (which is 14 cubits wide)......
The evidence suggests that the temple and fortificationswere completely destroyed in the Egyptian conquest of Hyksos Palestine,evidently in two campaigns perhaps of Ahmose and Amenophis I, ca. 1550-1540 B. C.
...After what appears to be an occupation gap of nearly a century, the city, its fortifications, and its temple were rebuilt.
There is no biblical record of a conquest of Shechem by Joshua.Rather one must presume that the whole of the central hill country from Bethel to Megiddo... came into Israels federation of tribes from covenant....
Although the editor of Judges, who lived after the judges period, considered the Shechem temple a pagan structure......In other words, the sons of Hamor of Shechem were probably not typical Canaanites....
He accepts the Egyptian "Conquest" of 1550 (impossible!) and a Joshua conquest in c1200.
More examples of the sorry state of biblical scholarship with relation to archaeology.However, he does get the internal text somewhat correct.He must wonder if Shechem was conquered by Joshua based on several internal (text and geography related plus the genocide doctrine) considerations , and he correctly notices (though for perhaps the wrong reasons in part) that the Shechemites are Canaanites.
Next Philistine city from the Bible says existed in 1550 BCE
Anchor Bible Dictionary
Gaza
Two ancient reliefs show a town in Palestine that can with great probability be identified as Gaza.
...
The foundation,however, of Gaza is still obscure.The name appears for the first time in the annals of Thutmose III.At that time (April 25, 1468 BC--ANET,235), Gaza was already the property of the Egyptian province Canaan.In the records of the 19th and 20th Egyptian dynasties , Gaza is generally refered to as (the town)The Canaan, which clearly demonstrates that gaza is the town of Canaan, in other words, the capital , which is further evidenced by Taanach-Letter no. 6 (Albright 1944:24-25)or by the Tell-El-Amarna Letters nos. 289 and 296 (EA, 289, 296).Egypts rule over Canaan with Gaza as its capital lasted for more than 400 years (ca. 1550-1150 B.C.)
Clearly the "Philistine" towns would have had the best weapons around.The Redactor even credits them with having Iron weapons at times, though that may not be true.
Next town...(o and btw, this makes 3 for 3 undisputed Philistine towns that existed well before the 1550 Conquest by their EXACT name mentioned in the Bible)....is Gath.
It simply hasnt been found.But Gath is clearly mentioned in a c1350 Amarna text.There has been a mess of possible sites.Infact, one tell was named after Gath by Albright(?), but they decided it wasnt the actual site due to a lack of LBA (1550-1200) pottery.Thank God for the Amarna reference! People would be using "Gath" (like "Ai" ie et-tell) as "evidence" against the Bible's accurate records.
Next Biblical town is Ekron
Anchor Bible Dictionary
Ekron
p415
B.Identification
Ekron is identified with Tel Miqne (Khirbet el-Muqanna ; M.R. 135131)35 km southwest of Jerusalem and 4.5 km E of Kibbutz Revadim.The tel is situated on... the natural and historical frontier zone that seperated Philistia and Judah....One of the largest Iron Age sites in Israel....W. F. Albright (Nimrod- footnotes refering to 1924 and 1925 work) , the first to survey the site in modern times , identified Muqanna with biblical Eltekeh in the territory of Dan, based on his view of the site as a small ruin.In 1951, the Circle for Historical Geography reaffirmed Albrights identificationAs a result, in 1953 the Israel Government Names Committee officially designated the site as Tel Eltekeh.In 1964, the same committee changed the name to tel Miqne...... J. Navehs 1957 survey of Muqanna, and his conclusion that its identification as Eltekeh,one of the elss important towns in the region , was inconsistent with the large size of the site, which included the previously unreconized 40-acre lower section of the tel....
It seems that they have slowly reached the conclusion that this must be Ekron for a variety of reasons.
This is one reason why we must be careful when accepting conclusions with regards to which exact historical city a site is.Archaeologists have lots of close sites in many cases.
We should also understand that specific towns Israelites name may be based on the general area, and not a specific town.Much like a sub-urban town (however large itself) will be named after its major mother city.There were clearly more than just 5 "Philistine" cities.Plus a major town in the area from 1600 may have been eclipsed by a later town and the later historians may refer to the older city by the newer one.
the article continues
page 417
...
The Chalcolithic, EB-I-II , and MB I-III periods are only attested by ceramic evidence in mixed fills and mud bricks from occupation phases of the LB and Iron Ages.MB1 sherds form the largest group within this sample.While sherds from all these periods were found in every field of excavation, the majority were from the sondage on the NE acropolis, which has provided the most complete stratified profile of the tel....
2Late Bronze Age.A sequence of three LB strata was exposed only in the sondage of the NE acropolis.As a result, the extent of the LB city has yet to be determined.However, LB sherds have been recovered from every field of excavation, suggesting that the city may have extended over most of the tel.
The earliest stratified remains, stratum IX, are dated to the 15th-14th centuries BCE.......
This was described as a "natural border" so perhaps there were other older towns that the Israelites were refering to.One can see (if you read more of the article) why the Israelite Redactor would name an older less-impressive site with the more impressive and modern (to them) site IF THIS SITE ACTUALLY IS EKRON.
Regardless, the Bible says the 5 towns (3 of the rcovered towns existed and by the EXACT same name the Bible describes when refering to c1600BCE)werent destroyed and all archaeological data shows that the "Philistine" cities werent destroyed.
A 4th (Gath) was mentioned in a c1350 letter so it is likely to have existed long before that, though it hasnt been found.
The 7 OTHER Biblical cities mentioned during the Conquest(Hazor, Gezer, Lachish , Meggido , Jerusalem , Shechem , and Sidon) also existed at this time and all but Sidon and Jerusalem were found to have been destroyed in 1550.Im sure it has to do with the massively dense modern cities over them (Sidon and Jerusalem) that prevents excavations.
Amazing that of all the Biblical cities named as having Canaanites (or other non-Israelites)hold power , we see that the archaeological record backs it up.Only Lachish (aside from "Ekron") can even remotely be considered to not support the biblical text, and even it isnt a contradiction at all.One would expect the Israelites to loose control of many sites (or never to have controlled them) not mentioned near the beginning of Judges.Im sure they lost everything from one time or another.And most of the time!
The highland sites (the Bible mentions as Canaanite controlled during the Judges period) make constant references to stateless individuals wandering the hillside.
The archaeological record and the Bibles Joshua-Judges period fits far more than one could imagine.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-22-2007 7:37 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-23-2007 7:16 AM Nimrod has replied
 Message 120 by Nimrod, posted 01-24-2007 7:53 AM Nimrod has not replied
 Message 121 by Nimrod, posted 01-25-2007 8:47 PM Nimrod has replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6268 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 117 of 300 (379163)
01-23-2007 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Nimrod
01-23-2007 4:31 AM


Re: Good direction.
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
ConsequentAtheist writes:
MightyPlaceNimrod writes:
....were many of the most important Conquest cities destroyed in a single year (1550)archaeologically and why did the population drop 95% in the EXACT place where the Israelites conquered?
This type of argument by rhetorical innuendo is pathetic garbage and deserves zero respect.
I can assure you that the major Conquest cities named (in the Bible) [were] destroyed (in the archaeological record), ...
Anyone who believes that they can "assure" an audience that "the most important Conquest cities [were] destroyed in a single year (1550)" is delusional.
More impotantly, note the difference between:
  • "many of the most important Conquest cities destroyed in a single year (1550)", and
  • "I can assure you that the major Conquest cities named (in the Bible) were destroyed"
Your argumentation is greasy, pretentious, and verbose, nothing more - much like that of someone who cherry-picks evidence of tornadic activity in the Plains, asserts en passant that it can be traced to his reverse-engineered 'precise' date for Dorothy's fantastic sojourn, and then claims to have established the historicity of the Munchkins. It's a pathetic joke rendered all the more so by the probability that you no doubt believe your own babble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Nimrod, posted 01-23-2007 4:31 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Nimrod, posted 01-23-2007 7:33 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 118 of 300 (379164)
01-23-2007 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ConsequentAtheist
01-23-2007 7:16 AM


Im only going by the mainstream...
... archaeological record.
Then stacking it alongside the only historical record on planet earth that(seems to) describes the terminal MBA situation in the highland region of Palestine.
Somebody earlier speculated that earthquakes tore apart the entire highland region of Palestine in c1550 BCE.
To cover such a broad area would mean the most powerful and far-reaching earthquakes in recorded history.Not to mention the most deadly (killing perhaps 95% of the population)
The Bible may not be describing a sigle year but the dates generally given in mainstream literature place all the destructions in a single year.And they never assume it to be the Isralite Conquest.Even when ONLY the cities named in the Bible (or the region the Bible mentions- in an efort on my part to take some of the sharp-edged specific assuring "rhetoric" off) are destroyed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-23-2007 7:16 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-23-2007 8:43 PM Nimrod has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6268 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 119 of 300 (379351)
01-23-2007 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Nimrod
01-23-2007 7:33 AM


Re: Im only going by the mainstream...
the most important Conquest cities destroyed in a single year ...
The Bible may not be describing a sigle year but ...
What a pathetic fraud ...
Edited by ConsequentAtheist, : formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Nimrod, posted 01-23-2007 7:33 AM Nimrod has not replied

Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 120 of 300 (379448)
01-24-2007 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Nimrod
01-23-2007 4:31 AM


UPDATE. (Gath , Gaza, Ecron)
Looks like the 4th city (Gath) has been discovered.And like a certain somebody said (though that certain somebody should have searched the internet and found the up to date information that YET AGAIN proves the Bible's historical veracity), the c1350 mentioning of it in the Amarna letters would seem to indicate an existence from much earlier.
Tell es-Safi - Wikipedia
Here is what I said
[qs]Next town...(o and btw, this makes 3 for 3 undisputed Philistine towns that existed well before the 1550 Conquest by their EXACT name mentioned in the Bible)....is Gath.
It simply hasnt been found.But Gath is clearly mentioned in a c1350 Amarna text.There has been a mess of possible sites.Infact, one tell was named after Gath by Albright(?), but they decided it wasnt the actual site due to a lack of LBA (1550-1200) pottery.Thank God for the Amarna reference! People would be using "Gath" (like "Ai" ie et-tell) as "evidence" against the Bible's accurate records.[/sq]
As for Gaza (I wasnt 100% satisfied with the Anchor Bible dictionary article, though I am quite positive it existed in that period), I was just reading a Biblical archaeology dictionary (Wycliff I believe) and they say that MBA pottery was found. I didnt see any references though.This simply isnt an issue to anybody mainstream since the Exodus is always assumed to have happened at 1250 and even "fundies" would only be concerned with issues surrounding 1400 (And I read over 30 years of Bryant Woods Bible & Spade Journal and I can attest that NOT ONE reference to Philistines before Samsons time was offered, infact they act as if the issue doesnt exist: most recent issues just want to talk about "prophecy"-like Tyre- , Creationism, and then Monarchy and Greco-Roman archaeology)
Here is the Wikipedia like on Gaza, and it isnt helpful
Gaza - Wikipedia
They dont even mention that it was refered to in Thutmose III's time (c.1450).The big problem with Gaza is that excavations are extremely difficult (infact impossible in most areas).
NEXT.
The city of Ekron has been found for certain (the specific location the Philistines would settle) and some may claim this can reasonably be used against the Bibles veracity.
Ekron - Wikipedia
I did say above that the Redactor could have simply been updating old place names (though the other 4 cities DID exist in that period by the same name , so he left them the same)and then in the case of Ekron; it could have been a situation where a newer city- (post 1600)from nearby the old one- was simply used as the (mother city style-such as calling Dearborn, Michigan "Detroit")name that would cause most to know the area being refered to.It wasnt like there were highly specific references to the Philistines before samsons time.
For references to the other cities, the Gath link (in its very first sentence) has hyperlinks to the other 4 cities.
4 of the 5 existed (Im 99.9% sure Gaza did) before the LBA, and actually long before.Ekron was the lone example.But it was a "natural frontier" so surely other older cities existed in that location, plus sherds were found from all periods there (no stratified remains though).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Nimrod, posted 01-23-2007 4:31 AM Nimrod has not replied

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