Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,585 Year: 4,842/9,624 Month: 190/427 Week: 0/103 Day: 0/0 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Destruction of Pompei is 1631 year.
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 31 of 132 (377382)
01-16-2007 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by elcano
01-16-2007 2:30 PM


Re: So where's that problem, elcano?
Who is the witness of destruction Pompeii and Herculaneum in 79 year? (Xiphilin the author of 11 centuries!)
Pliny the Younger whose uncle, Pliny the Elder was killed while helping to evacuate folk using the Roman fleet.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 2:30 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 2:53 PM jar has replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 32 of 132 (377384)
01-16-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Wepwawet
01-15-2007 8:11 PM


Re: Still paying attention here
Wepwawet write,
"Anyway, the evidence that the city of Pompeii was destroyed in the first century is overwhelming. Cite all the documents you like; you can walk the streets of Pompeii and see that it is a first century city and not one from the seventeenth. Elcano needs to stop this blathering and address why no seventeenth century structures or artifacts have been unearthed at the site."
Look the message (28) from dwise1
After 79 years there were 16 eruptions of Vesuvius and any gram of ashes has not dropped out in area Pompeii.
What facts confirm destruction Pompeii and Herculaneum in 79 year?
Such facts is not available. There are only incorrectly dating archeological finds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Wepwawet, posted 01-15-2007 8:11 PM Wepwawet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Wepwawet, posted 01-16-2007 10:28 PM elcano has replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 33 of 132 (377386)
01-16-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
01-16-2007 2:45 PM


Re: So where's that problem, elcano?
I already spoke, Pliny the Younger not know anything about the city of Pompeii. In its book “Letters” there is no such city.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 2:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 2:58 PM elcano has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 34 of 132 (377390)
01-16-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by elcano
01-16-2007 2:53 PM


Pliny the Younger.
I already spoke, Pliny the Younger not know anything about the city of Pompeii. In its book “Letters” there is no such city. I already spoke, Pliny the Younger not know anything about the city of Pompeii. In its book “Letters” there is no such city.
No, you asserted. Sorry but Pliny the Younger was very much aware of the 79CE eruption of Vesuvius. That is the point. Vesuvius erupted in 79CE.
If you want to continue believing nonsense, then that is fine. But don't expect folk to waste any more time on you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 2:53 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 3:43 PM jar has replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 35 of 132 (377403)
01-16-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
01-16-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Pliny the Younger knows such date in 1963
Erat Miseni classemque imperio praesens regebat. Nonum
kal. Septembres hora fere septima mater mea indicat ei
adparere nubem inusitata et magnitudine et specie.
(Epistulae, VI,16,4) C. Plini Caecili Secundi epistolarum libri decem. Recognouit brevique adnotatione critica instruxit R. A. B. Mynors.
E typographeo Clarendoniano: Oxonii, 1963.
It knows only on August, 24th, but it does not know year.
And in 1515 it knows other date.
lib VI.16 (P.156) Erat Miseni, classemque imperio praesens regebat Nouemb. kalen. hora fere septima mater mea indicat ei, .
Auteur(s) : Pline le Jeune (0061?-0114?)
Rubriques de classement : latin). 1515
Titre(s) : C. Plinii Caecilii Secundi novo commensis epistolae omnium,... [Document electronique]
Type de ressource electronique : Donnees textuelles
Publication : 1995
Description materielle : 493 p.
Note(s) : Reproduction : Num. BNF de l'ed. de Cambridge (Mass.) : Omnisys, [ca 1990] (Italian books before 1601 ; 104.1). 1 microfilmReprod. de l'ed. de [S.l.] : [s.n.], [1515]
It knows on first of November, but also it does not know year.
Old editions can look on Gallica and see when there is a date on August, 24th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 2:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AdminPhat, posted 01-16-2007 4:08 PM elcano has replied
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-16-2007 4:31 PM elcano has not replied
 Message 39 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 4:36 PM elcano has replied
 Message 40 by anastasia, posted 01-16-2007 4:37 PM elcano has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 132 (377406)
01-16-2007 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by elcano
01-16-2007 3:43 PM


Why do you believe this stuff?
Elcano, welcome to EvC. Allow me to point out a couple of our Forum Guidelines as pertaining to this topic.
(4)Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
(5)Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
There is no debate among scientists as to the basic time period of the destruction of Pompeii. Perhaps you can elaborate on why you find this counter-evidence that you link to to be so convincing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 3:43 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 4:38 PM AdminPhat has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 37 of 132 (377409)
01-16-2007 4:17 PM


A word from board administration...
Elcano's approach to discussion seems a bit unusual to say the least, but after observing this thread for a short while I see no need for administrative action, and in fact perhaps this thread represents an opportunity.
The primary task of participants at EvC Forum is one of effective persuasion, in essence posing the question, "How do I make the light bulb go on for the other guy?" Elcano seems to present a particularly difficult puzzle in this regard, and so this thread perhaps represents an opportunity to hone your persuasion skills. So far no one has succeeded in getting Elcano to understand, among other things, that volcanoes can and do erupt more than once, or that the excavated Pompeii site reveals a 1st century Roman town, not a 17th century Italian town. Seems quite a significant challenge.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 38 of 132 (377411)
01-16-2007 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by elcano
01-16-2007 3:43 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Percy has a good point, elcano. You have shown us the opinion of a contrary point of view. Why do you believe that the traditional explanation for Pompeii is not correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 3:43 PM elcano has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 39 of 132 (377412)
01-16-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by elcano
01-16-2007 3:43 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Pliny the Younger lived between 63 and 113 CE, was alive at the time of the eruption and also wrote about it AT that time.
I was alive in 1963, and I can assure you that Pliny the Younger was not.
I think you may be confusing the publication dates of some book with the actual time events happened.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 3:43 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 5:11 PM jar has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 40 of 132 (377413)
01-16-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by elcano
01-16-2007 3:43 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Privet, elcano!
I am not an expert, but I think you're problem is not too hard to solve.
Vesuvius erupted many times. In 79 it destroyed Pompei. Pliny the Younger was a witness according to a letter found which is thought to be written by him.
In 1631 Vesuvius erupted again. The epitaph is a memorial of this eruption. This epitaph says either that the people were killed just like at Pompei, or that the people in that area called Pompei were killed.
This is a simplified answer that may not be what you are looking for. If there is more to this than language I apologize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 3:43 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 5:16 PM anastasia has replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 41 of 132 (377414)
01-16-2007 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by AdminPhat
01-16-2007 4:08 PM


Re: Why do you believe this stuff?
79, 24th August-Mount Vesuvius erupts burying Pompeii to a depth of 5 to 6 metres and Herculaneum to a depth of 10 metres
1748-First systematic excavations at the hill then known merely as 'Civita' (later to be identified as Pompeii)
1763, 20th August-Inscription excavated proving that the buried town is Pompeii
Page not found | Faculty of Classics
In 18 century it has been solved, that Pompeii were lost in 79 year. However in 19 century there were doubts in such date. Introduction historique de Pompeia, d'Ernest Breton
Today there is all the bases even more to doubt of date offered in 18 century. Those facts, that I have resulted directly show, that date 79 year has no serious substantiations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by AdminPhat, posted 01-16-2007 4:08 PM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by anastasia, posted 01-16-2007 5:37 PM elcano has replied
 Message 54 by Percy, posted 01-16-2007 6:04 PM elcano has replied
 Message 57 by Jaderis, posted 01-16-2007 9:56 PM elcano has not replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 42 of 132 (377416)
01-16-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
01-16-2007 4:36 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Who it has told?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 4:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 01-16-2007 5:27 PM elcano has replied

  
elcano
Member (Idle past 4333 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 43 of 132 (377417)
01-16-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by anastasia
01-16-2007 4:37 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
Here the basic phrase of all authors writing about destruction Pompeii and Herculaneum.
“Excavation began in the 18th century, when all memory of the existence of Herculaneum had been lost for centuries and the only available reports of it were those that had come down through the authors of antiquity, without any information as to the exact position of the ancient city.”
Sim S p - Mua Online Sim p Viettel, Mobi, Vina gi r - tigtail
After eruption 79 years have forgotten about these cities, at all did not know their site.
Date of eruption is based on messages of antique authors.
The basic assumption which does not call in question today. It is false.
Why these cities are present on maps of 16 -17 centuries?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by anastasia, posted 01-16-2007 4:37 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 01-16-2007 5:24 PM elcano has replied
 Message 48 by anastasia, posted 01-16-2007 5:44 PM elcano has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 44 of 132 (377419)
01-16-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by elcano
01-16-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
So lets consider some of the evidence. Let's ignore precise dating to consider if Pompeii was destoryed in the Roman period of the 17th Century.
Pliny the Younger wrote of a major eruption of Vesuivius which caused signfiicant loss of life in the area.
Cassius Dio wrote of the destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum (even if we assume that the reference is a 16th Century forgery - by your own words it can be no later - why would the author write of the destruction of Pompeii if it was still many decades in the future ?)
Marcus Aurelius named Pompeii and Herculaneum as cities that had been destroyed (Meditations IV 48).
The archaeology of Pompeii is Roman - Roman style buildings, Latin graffiti, Roman material culture.
Which of these facts do you dispute ? How do you explain them if Pompeii was destroyed in the 17th Century ? Is it not more likely that you have misunderstood the monument ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 5:16 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by elcano, posted 01-18-2007 3:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 45 of 132 (377420)
01-16-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by elcano
01-16-2007 5:11 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
I am not sure I understand your question. Pliny the Younger wrote about the 79CE eruption and the death of his uncle in his Letters.
It is also worth noting as a secondary correlation, his uncle Pliny the Elder, was killed during a rescue operation trying to save folk made homeless by that eruption. And we find that after 79CE there are no more new works from Pliny the Elder. Also a new Prefect of the Roman Fleet is appointed by Vespasian.
The point is that there is corroborating evidence of the 79CE eruption of Vesuvius. There are eye witness accounts. There are ruins that contain coins where none date later than 79CE, where all of the architecture, pottery, construction, clothing, paintings and ornaments are all of the style found before 100 CE. There are the distinct layers of ash. There are the radiometric measurements.
Each data point independently corroborates a major eruption of Vesuvius in 79CE.
The issue is simply not in doubt or question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 5:11 PM elcano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by elcano, posted 01-16-2007 5:42 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024