Plausible Evolutionary Chains for Educational Use

In an earlier thread, a member asked to see a hypothetical chain (between major groups, like class or order) consistent with the fossil record. In other words, drawings of creatures from a fish (say, a lobe finned fish) through intermediates like Tiktaalik, and Ichthyostega, through an amphibian, to say an early reptile like Dimetrodon. It only has to be plausible (consistent with the fossil record)- not that we have to know for sure exactly that this is the actual descendant.With such a question, we should have provided a ton of very useful and clear pictures. I find it embarrassing as a scientist, educator, and evolution supporter that we don't have these on the sides of buses, not to mention available in discussion here.This is not a thread for talking about how we can’t know exact ancestry (which isn’t needed in this case anyway), nor about how evolution produces trees or bushes (which is irrelevant, since a chain will still exist behind each organism that has ever lived, all the way from a redwood to it's gggggreat grandfather bacterium).Instead, this is a thread for discussing and even finding/making good chains. Also (as a person with the computer skills of a Neanderthal), I'd like to find out what we can do to make these generally accessible. I also am very busy, so I'll contribute and help as I can.Some for starters:1. There is a video version on the Cosmos series. I'll find out which episode.
2. The whale series on post #54 here http://EvC Forum: evolutionary chain -->EvC Forum: evolutionary chain.
3. Hominids 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1 (also, jaw series there is good).
4. fish to mammal (Jaw/Ear focus) (page down to where it says "inner ear bones" http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/...iller/chordates2/Chordates2.htm
5. Horse feet: Bpeah.com is for sale | HugeDomains
6. Another video version is in the movie "Mission to Mars", though someone could do a lot better if they wanted to.
7. Another video version is that Bud commercial that was shown only in Europe and not in the US due to worries about fundy reactions to evolution. Again, someone could do a lot better (and more accurately).RAZD, thanks for suggesting this start. I didn't attach the pictures since I didn't see copyright permssion, but did provide links above. (Mods, feel free to insert pictures if we have copyright permission or whatever we need).What is our next step to get a bunch of these, especially detailed ones showing many steps (even without fossils for all of them), and make them accessible? Maybe some kind of wiki format? Hosted where? Is there already one that I don't know about?Which forum? Maybe Biological Evolution?Thanks all-Edited by Equinox, : Added suggested forum.

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

Wow, RAZD, that one’s awesome. Too bad we aren’t getting any more. The ones you mention are finely and clearly documented with fossils, which is overkill compared to the simple idea of plausible chains (where all the fossil intermediaries aren’t needed).I think part of the lack here is because to do the drawings, one needs to be an artist, while to know what they should look like, one needs to be a serious biologist/paleontologist. Add to this that most paleontologists are specialized into a time period or type of fossil, and it gets even harder. For these, we need a team of an artist working with a paleontologist. Anybody know of a paleontologist or biologist who is interested in making some of these happen? It seems like it wouldn’t be too hard from there to find an artist who would like to do these, since I think there are more unemployed artists than there are unemployed paleontologists.In fact, I can imagine a bunch of descent chains going from major forms of life today (for instance, a whale, a person, a snake, a horse, an ostrich, and elephant, a penguin, an octopus, or an eagle) back to prokayotes. These should be a standard part of any biology book, especially high school or below so people can get a feel for this early on.

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

RAZD - thanks for that horse one, especially that picture of the skulls. You got right to the heart of this question at the end of that post - “ how much change is enough?”. We need to remember that these are plausible chains - thus we don’t need to show fossils for each single step, nor know the ancestry for certain. Ideally, we are looking for hypothetical drawings over huge ranges, like from invertebrates all the way to rabbits.Nonetheless, the excellant posts by RAZD are good examples of documented evolution (where the steps are all well known).Mick-your examples are good, but are not what we are looking for. The trilobite chain could be useful if we took drawings from, say, a vendian precursor to a trilobite and had drawings showing it morphing into a horseshoe crab, but even that is less change than we are really looking for. The dino to bird one isn't useful because the pictures don't show gradual change (adjacent forms aren't clearly the same creature). It would be good to see a hypothetical morphing of a compsognathus into a penguin, for example. Thanks anyway though.Edited by Equinox, : Added response to mick

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

RAZD wrote: It certainly is a tall order if each step is to be supported by a complete fossil (or even an incomplete one). However fossil proof is not needed for a plausible chain. Since I’m only talking about plausible chains, they are NOT a tall order. It’s just a matter of an artist taking a few minutes to do it in consultation with an appropriately specialized biologist (like many people here - maybe lithoid man for the spider chain?). In fact, just this morning I watched, on the Cosmos series (Carl Sagan), the following plausible chains, with literally hundreds of steps in each one:Molecules to camels
Molecules to turtles
Molecules to sponges
Molecules to monkeys
Molecules to dinosaurs
Molecules to birds
Molecules to starfish
Molecules to humansThey are on episode #2 (“one voice in the cosmic fugue”), and start around 25 minutes in. I’m looking for things like that which are more accessible to everyone, like say on a webpage or in a JPEG format, or such. Plus, more detail beyond the line drawings in Cosmos would be nice too. (If anyone doesn’t have the cosmos series, I highly recommend it - it single-handedly inspired thousands of people to enter the sciences). It’s at: Cosmos: Carl Sagan (1980) (just read the reviews if you are unsure - my 5 year old loves it already, it’s our special daddy-son “movie”).I hope I’m being clear that these are plausible (as in “not contradicted by the fossil record, nor by other evidence, such as genetic evidence”), chains. I’m not asking for cases where we have every leg bone of every creature at every step (or even a fossil of every step), or any such level of proof. Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed Link

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

Thanks for telling me how to do it. Now I know.

you know, I could even imagine a very plausible chain going back from a spider to the common ancestor, and then forward to the trilobite. As long as the common ancestor were noted, then this would work too.I wonder if Lith knows of drawing or such of those transitions - not actual fossils, but plausible, scientifically consistent estimates?Thanks-

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)