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Author Topic:   Must religion be logical?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 121 of 164 (374709)
01-05-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by anastasia
01-05-2007 12:35 PM


Re the trinity
In 1997 I had toyed with the idea of researching the Trinity for my honours dissertation.
After discussing it with my advisor John Drane, and the dissertation being limited to 20 000 words, I decided against it!
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:35 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 164 (374710)
01-05-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:37 PM


Kader writes:
"God exist and you are CRAZY not to see it!!"
You know ....that kind of "belief"
That isn't belief. It's wishful thinking - another step down the ladder.
"True" believers (and there are some on this thread) know that they don't know. They fill the gaps in their knowledge with what they "believe" are the most logical answers. Most important, they are willing to be wrong about their beliefs.
"False" believers (and there are some of them on this thread too) don't understand the difference between believing and knowing. They wish they knew and they delude themselves into thinking that they do know. They think that shouting, "I do! I do! I do believe in spooks!" is logic.
Whistling in the dark is easier on the ears, but apparently not as satisfying.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 123 of 164 (374711)
01-05-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:44 PM


Re: Gish Gallop
Kader writes:
But how come I don't know God ?
I can't judge you personally. I say, if you are trying honestly to love your neighbor because it is the right thing to do, not because you have to, then you have already acknowledged the 'truth' of the Bible and the message of Jesus. You DO believe in God, or at the least you are sure that there is a right and a wrong. It is only a matter of time before you say 'why?' is it right? It is probably more difficult to reason backwards than to start with God and ask 'why'? But it has been known to happen. You know God already, but you don't believe in Him. I think He will find you, as long as you don't let logic be your enemy instead of your friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:44 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 124 of 164 (374712)
01-05-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
01-05-2007 12:54 PM


Most important, they are willing to be wrong about their beliefs.
It may well be a hangover from my Christian days but anyone who wasn't convinced 100% that Jesus is God, that is convinced in their heart, then they weren't considered to be a Christian at all.
If I really thought I could be wrong about my atheism I would be an agnostic.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 1:04 PM Brian has replied
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 1:13 PM Brian has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 164 (374713)
01-05-2007 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Brian
01-05-2007 12:59 PM


Brian writes:
... anyone who wasn't convinced 100% that Jesus is God, that is convinced in their heart, then they weren't considered to be a Christian at all.
Yeah, that's the rhetoric.
But I think a lot of them are just trying to convince themselves that they're convinced.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:59 PM Brian has replied

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 126 of 164 (374714)
01-05-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Brian
01-05-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Re the trinity
Brian writes:
I decided against it!
There is nothing new under the sun, just five thousand ways of looking at the same old stiff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:51 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 127 of 164 (374715)
01-05-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
01-05-2007 1:04 PM


Yeah, that's the rhetoric.
But I think a lot of them are just trying to convince themselves that they're convinced.
More than likely yes.
Why don't you ask Jaywill, he might know?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 128 of 164 (374716)
01-05-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Brian
01-05-2007 12:59 PM


Brian writes:
It may well be a hangover from my Christian days but anyone who wasn't convinced 100% that Jesus is God, that is convinced in their heart, then they weren't considered to be a Christian at all.
What are they? Muslim? Or Jehova's Witness?
If I really thought I could be wrong about my atheism I would be an agnostic.
Which equals 'I KNOW GOd does not exist' and is just as foolish as claiming to KNOW He does exist. But without the redeeming cutesy mushiness that goes with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:59 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 1:29 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 129 of 164 (374718)
01-05-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Kader
01-05-2007 9:51 AM


Living by Fiction
Kader:
No the error that plague the bible have a lot to do with its value. The value of the bible isn't like the value of any book. Because people hold it to be the truth.
More accurately, people expect the Bible to tell the truth. This is what any believing community expects of its sacred texts. A sacred text is one recognized by a community as being especially good at telling the truth.
This is true also for any communication regarded as prophetic. A prophet is just someone who is especially good at telling the truth.
Some texts come to be so revered that people think of them as one and the same with the truths they reveal. Your wording--that a book can 'be' the truth--illustrates this.
Some prophets likewise come to be regarded as the embodiment of the truths they reveal.
And that means it deals with reality.
All writing, if we find it relevant and interesting, deals with reality.
So we can't treat it like any fiction book like you seem to do
All fiction, if we find it relevant and interesting, deals with reality.
Good storytellers know this.
and just accept the "message". We need to verify the allegation of the bible.
This confuses 'reality' with factuality. Your statements assume that telling the truth can only mean conveying a set of materially demonstrable facts. Otherwise, it is no truth at all.
Factuality is a smaller thing than Truth, though. It is a subset of Truth, the grand category. To confuse the two is to shrink the idea of truth down to something smaller than it really is. You shrink truth down to a single form of expression and overlook the other ways it can reach you.
Your glib equation of truth with fact is not unusual. It reflects a common prejudice in your culture.
That culture's understanding of reality has, since the eighteenth century, been strongly shaped by industrial and scientific interests. It is the child of eighteenth-century Enlightenment philosophy. Its understanding of 'truth' reflects the pragmatic, utilitarian biases of that outlook.
That culture's popular understanding of literature goes as far as the values of journalism. Either a bit of writing is factually true--the way a good newspaper article is--or it is dismissed as a useless piece of 'fiction.' This popular view is illiterate on the subject of creative genres. It is consequently blind to the powerful way symbolic truth operates in our understanding of the world around us.
Most people who get into debates about the Bible would benefit from a creative writing class.
Make a point starting from "reality" and not some "story".
But your understanding of reality is a story. It is a story you create yourself from the experiences you absorb.
quote:
The mind is a blue guitar on which we improvise the song of the world.
- Annie Dillard
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 9:51 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 3:29 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 130 of 164 (374721)
01-05-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Brian
01-05-2007 1:11 PM


rescinded
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 1:11 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 131 of 164 (374724)
01-05-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by anastasia
01-05-2007 1:13 PM


What are they? Muslim? Or Jehova's Witness?
They were just people who wanted to be Christians but weren't fully convinced.
Which equals 'I KNOW GOd does not exist'
Atheism is a belief. I believe 100% that there isn't a God, fully convinced beyond all doubt.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 1:13 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 164 (374733)
01-05-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:44 PM


Knowing God
I do not believe in jesus, but I can assure you, I am doing my best to be a good person with the knowledge that I have. I try to respect others and to treat them as I would like to be treated.
But how come I don't know God ?
I don't know you so I can't put words in your mouth as to why you don't know God. I know this much though: That some people have not because they ask not. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened. Have you asked Him to reveal Himself to you?
There is no magic formula for knowing God because He comes to us all differently. But I know that He didn't come to me until I asked Him to. And when He revealed Himself to me, it wasn't in my timing, but His. What I mean is, if you pray to God to reveal Himself, He may come to you in some profound way that moment. He may come to you a week later- a month - a year. Seek and you'll find.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 133 of 164 (374748)
01-05-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Archer Opteryx
01-05-2007 1:15 PM


Re: Living by Fiction
Archer Opterix
Most of what you said is right.
I just wonder how can we call something truth if it doesn't deal with facts ?
Thanks for your input

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-05-2007 1:15 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-29-2007 12:20 PM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 134 of 164 (374753)
01-05-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by anastasia
01-05-2007 12:55 PM


I can't judge you personally. I say, if you are trying honestly to love your neighbor because it is the right thing to do, not because you have to, then you have already acknowledged the 'truth' of the Bible and the message of Jesus.
I do, and not only me, lots of people (muslim, atheist, buddhist..) are good and honest people. Believing in Jesus or not has nothing to do with it.
you DO believe in God, or at the least you are sure that there is a right and a wrong.
Yes I'm sure that there is a right and wrong, but I don't see how that makes me believe in God. Do you mean without God there is no Right and Wrong ?
You know God already, but you don't believe in Him. I think He will find you, as long as you don't let logic be your enemy instead of your friend.
I don't think I should either find God or that he needs to find me. If God exist he already knowsa of "me" and already knows what I will become and what I will do. He already know if I am a good person or not.
But if Im not baptised, will I go to hell even if I was a good person ?
It's things like that that makes me doubt (strongly) any ones belief in religions. The illogical part (all-loving God) does get in the way

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:55 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 135 of 164 (374761)
01-05-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Kader
01-05-2007 3:42 PM


Kader writes:
I do, and not only me, lots of people (muslim, atheist, buddhist..)
That is true, and I believe many of them will reach eternal life as well. Just remember, not knowing Jesus does not mean not knowing God. Believing in God and having some particular ideas about Him wrong does not mean you don't know God. But knowing about God and still doing bad things is where the problem is.
Yes I'm sure that there is a right and wrong, but I don't see how that makes me believe in God. Do you mean without God there is no Right and Wrong ?
I like to picture that the Right IS God.
I don't think I should either find God or that he needs to find me
Well, ya sure do ask a lot of questions about Him! Maybe part of the reason you can't find Him is because you act like you already know the answers to your questions.
But if Im not baptised, will I go to hell even if I was a good person ?
I believe in a baptism of desire type of thing. If you are really trying to do what is right because you think it was meant to be, then you can be considered to be desiring to be a part of the kingdom of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 3:42 PM Kader has not replied

  
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