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Author Topic:   War on Christmas
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 245 (373194)
12-31-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by anastasia
12-31-2006 12:46 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
anastasia writes:
It does not say 'freedom from religion' but 'freedom of religion'.
Interestingly, many languages (French, for example) don't make a distinction between "of" and "from" at all. It's the same word.
And if, as some theists claim, atheism is a religion, requiring "faith", then freedom to "practise" atheism would be freedom from religion.
Isn't that what the so-called "war on Christmas" is all about - the desire to be free from other people's religions?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 12:46 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 77 of 245 (373195)
12-31-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-31-2006 1:13 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
I say that majority rules. If I lived in an Islamic country, I would just have to learn to deal with it! Of course, were Christians forced to put up with some weird Pagan ritual every year, we would probably want to secularize Christmas also....(wait a minute! We do put up with a materialist Pagan ritual every year! )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-31-2006 1:13 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 245 (373196)
12-31-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-31-2006 1:21 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
Phat writes:
I say that majority rules.
You don't even need a constitution for that. The majority can bully minorities anywhere.
One of the main reasons to have a constitution is to protect minorities from the majority. Your Constitution tries to do that by guaranteeing freedom from being forced to observe the religion of the majority.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 6035 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 79 of 245 (373209)
12-31-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-31-2006 1:13 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
Ringo writes:
Interestingly, many languages (French, for example) don't make a distinction between "of" and "from" at all. It's the same word.
Happens in English as well.
Free of oppression.
Free from oppression.
Similar, but in this case free 'from' oppression implies a past state of oppression.
But if we say;
'freedom of speech', or
'freedom from speech', the difference is too noticeable to interchange the words at random.
And if, as some theists claim, atheism is a religion, requiring "faith", then freedom to "practise" atheism would be freedom from religion.
If I am reading this right then yes, but if you take all mention of God away in every public situation, it is not allowing the same freedom to deists? Does that make sense? Like, atheism is winning as a world view because while we have the freedom to worship as we please, we can't talk about it openly anymore in politics?
Isn't that what the so-called "war on Christmas" is all about - the desire to be free from other people's religions?
Probably, but then it is just a matter of perspective. The atheist will be free of hearing about christmas, but the christian will not be free to mention it. It's a lose lose, IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-31-2006 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 245 (373212)
12-31-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by anastasia
12-31-2006 12:35 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
If a person is lucky enough to live in a country which upholds these values and if he is able to take the oath of office in good conscience, I can't conceive of any reason why he would subvert a nation to a relgious view.
If a person is elected or ascends to a position where the laws he will be upholding deny the above values, he may be wise to refuse the office or yes, monstrosity of all monstrosities, take some steps to revising the institution.
Neither of these are person {B}
This is what MLK did. His views may not have been contradictory to the constitution, but he did point out the discrepencies in the values of this country and the personal values of the founding fathers.
So MLK is not a person {B} either.
You have not refuted the point that person {B} is willing if not happy to commit treason (subvert the constitution) to advance his religious beliefs.
This country has always been about seperating church and state. There are a few elected officials who feel they must put personal views aside when it comes to things like abortion or cloning.
And there are those that don't. Like schwubbia putting his beliefs regarding stem cell research above the liberty and freedom of families to let doctors do research with fetal stem cells rather than be thrown out.
If we chose to take God out of the equation,
Why do christians always use this phrase? It seems like they are unable to pour a glass of milk without having god IN the equation.
The declaration and constitution are very clear that this is a government "of the people by the people for the people," that when a government is unjust that it is the "Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Nowhere does it say "and by the way, here are some religious beliefs that must be included" - the constitution itself is totally silent on the issue of god, and verbose on the running of government.
I don't think there are very many people who actually think Jesus was born on December 25. Even as a little girl I asked my mom 'how do we know'? Who cares? Things evolve. If people want to get all steamy about a 'war' that was over for the most part 1600 years ago, fine.
The point is that it is christians that are the {edit} perpetrators {/edit} if there is any "war" on culture here, and that when it comes to complaining about it they don't have a leg to stand on -- there is nothing that ties christianity to december - it is wholely a christian imposition.
Who cares? I would think anyone interested in the truth would care. Do a google and see what you find -- year and month.
This is one view:
Correcting Popular Misconceptions about Jesus Christ's birth - ChristianAnswers.Net/christmas
quote:
One problem with December is that it would be unusual for shepherds to be "abiding in the field" at this cold time of year when fields were unproductive. The normal practice was to keep the flocks in the fields from Spring to Autumn.
A more probable time would be late September, the time of the annual Feast of Tabernacles, when such travel was commonly accepted. Thus, it is rather commonly believed (though not certain) that Jesus' birth was around the last of September.
So, why was December 25 chosen to remember Jesus Christ's birth with a mass (or Communion supper)? Since no one knows the day of his birth, the Roman Catholic Church felt free to chose this date. The Church wished to replace the pagan festival with a Christian holy day (holiday). The psychology was that is easier to take away an unholy (but traditional) festival from the population, when you can replace it with a good one.
This is another:
http://www.locksley.com/6696/xmas.htm
quote:
Allowing two months or more for the events between the birth of Christ and the murder of the Innocents by Herod, the Nativity must be put back at least to February or January, 750 AU (or 4 BCE), if not earlier.
After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger.
Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day.
Mithra, by the way, was born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun). Any of that sound familiar?
The Christian holiday was not always celebrated on December 25th, however.
For the first three hundred years of the current era, there was no festivity of the birth of Jesus. Some churches celebrated Jesus' birthday in the spring time and some celebrated it on January 6 (Epiphany).
Early in the fourth century, the Roman church decreed that December 25 would henceforth be recognized as the birthday of Christ.
The evidence is that december 25th was intentionally chosen by the leading christian church (catholic) in order to subvert a pagan celebration. One that involves yule trees, yule logs, mistletoe, family feasts, etcetera.
Our laws currently allow for the practice of Saturnalia, Yule, Solstice, or none at all. I have been to Yule celebrations and I see no reason why they can not be celebrated as complimentary to each other.
Good for you, but don't try to tell me that december 25th has anything to do with christianity.
And the values of freedom, equality, liberty and justice have nothing to do with continuing to spread a falsehood eh?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : corrected word
Edited by RAZD, : changed "protagonists" to "perpetrators"

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 245 (373214)
12-31-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by anastasia
12-31-2006 4:12 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
anastasia writes:
The atheist will be free of hearing about christmas, but the christian will not be free to mention it.
Freedom "of" religion entitles you to practise whatever religion you choose. Freedom "of" speech entitles you to say whatever you choose about your religion.
Freedom "from" religion entitles you to practise no religion at all. Freedom "from" speech would entitle you not to speak at all.
I don't know of any fundamental right not to hear what you don't want to hear.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 4:12 PM anastasia has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5972
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 82 of 245 (373217)
12-31-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by RAZD
12-31-2006 5:04 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
The point is that it is christians that are the protagonists if there is any "war" on culture here, ...
I disagree. Rather, they are the antagonists. They are the ones who launched their "culture war". They are the ones on the offensive. They are the ones who wish to impose their views and beliefs on everybody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2006 5:04 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 83 of 245 (373221)
12-31-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by dwise1
12-31-2006 5:22 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
Neither gets it just right:
quote:
pro·tag·o·nist -noun
1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
2. a proponent for or advocate of a political cause, social program, etc.
3. the leader or principal person in a movement, cause, etc.
vs
quote:
an·tag·o·nist -noun
1. a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.
2. the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work: Iago is the antagonist of Othello.
A protagonist is usually seen as the good guy and an antagonist is usually seen as the bad guy (connotations for the words, synonyms), so that makes for problems using these terms here.
Perhaps "perpetrator" would be better.
Thanks

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 6035 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 84 of 245 (373225)
12-31-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
12-31-2006 5:17 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
Ringo writes:
I don't know of any fundamental right not to hear what you don't want to hear.
Well, golly gee, I think you just put everyone out of business. Let Bushie say what he wants, let everyone else say Happy Holidays! and get over it!

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 6035 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 85 of 245 (373228)
12-31-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by RAZD
12-31-2006 5:04 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
RAZD writes:
Neither of these are person {B}
Well, I am sorry. You never said person B. had to be American.
You have not refuted the point that person {B} is willing if not happy to commit treason (subvert the constitution) to advance his religious beliefs.
Perhaps I don't care to. Maybe commiting treason is not the biggest crime in the world. If this answer is not a propo, then please
rephrase to be more specific.
Why do christians always use this phrase? It seems like they are unable to pour a glass of milk without having god IN the equation.
I don't keep track of other christians, sorry. I used the phrase because it made my point.
Good for you, but don't try to tell me that december 25th has anything to do with christianity.
It does now and you would perhaps remember that some christians don't celebrate Christmas at all, and that some celebrate it on January 7. If it will make you happy I will use that date henceforth.
Who cares? I would think anyone interested in the truth would care. Do a google and see what you find -- year and month.
It is common knowledge that Christmas wasn't in December. It is interesting and all that good stuff to do the research, but still, who cares? I am sure Yule supplanted some previous celebration, and so on and so on. Things change. If some pagan converts began to incorporate their new beliefs into their old traditions ages ago, well then take it up with them. I think we, in this day and age, can share a date on the calender, especially since most of the earlier celebrations were about the solstice, and science has now proven that to occur on the 20 or 21 of the month on our current calendar.
The evidence is that december 25th was intentionally chosen by the leading christian church (catholic) in order to subvert a pagan celebration. One that involves yule trees, yule logs, mistletoe, family feasts, etcetera.
As far as I know the only time the catholic church forced anything was when Constantine made the Roman pagans give up their celebrations of Saturnalia, which did not involve Yule trees, etc.
For the past countless many years no one has been forcing anything. The poor Romans didn't even get to keep any of their traditions the way the poor Germans got to keep their trees. I daresay they could have kept their gods to go along with them if they had wanted.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4192 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 86 of 245 (373229)
12-31-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
12-27-2006 11:48 AM


To me, it looks like a response not an initiation.
really? when the dominent religion is christianity and there are more people who are right-wing that middle or left?
People are gonna bitch about something, no matter what. Its annoying. From my point of view, the left does more bitching, but I could have a biased perspective. Every once in a while, I like to jump in and do a little bitching back.
i think it depends on what the subject is, and yes i think its bias to claim that the left bitchs more. i consider myself middle, rather than left or right, i hold some conservitive views and some liberal, but mostly middle
I think you’re wrong here, at least in the way that I use the greeting. I’m aware of the other religions and don’t include the religious connotation in the greeting, and I certainly care about things outside of christianity. In the same way that you are saying that christians are making up persecution, the people who are offended be the greeting are falsy including ignorance and offense into the greeting.
thats just you though, not everyone views it like you, thats the point i'm making, christmas still has more religious meaning that you claiming it does
when infact most people who celebrate it, consider it religious
I don’t think Merry Christmas is better, I just don’t think its bad. I can agree that Happy Holidays is better but, personally, I’m not used to it. Merry Christmas comes naturally, as that’s what I was raised to say, and I don’t think I should have to change because of a few people’s perceived offense from it.
yes you grew up saying it, so what? your argument just sounds like "i don't care about what you think, i'll say what i want and you can go screw yourself or suck it up"
and a lot of people believe in creationism but we can agree that we shouldn’t change a science curriculum to appease them. We shouldn’t change the holiday greeting to appease these people either.
where did i say that we should do this? i was pointing out that a lot of people if not most do consider the greeting to religious, which you said most people don't, why shouldn't we change it? it works ok if theres just christianity, but not everyone is a christian
If it’s a greeting to a stranger the odds are that the person will be celebrating christmas in some way. The vast majority of people, in america at least, do. Its doesn’t assume that everyone does, but I’m not gonna to NOT use a greeting I prefer because of a small fraction of people that might get offended.
thats a great assumption on your part don't you think? one thing i've learned working at walmart is never to assume anything, because i'm usally wrong, which is a good thing to keep in mind
Huh?
my sarcastic way of saying, your analogy sucks the fact is a language is only a form of comunication its not a religion, so how exactly can you compare them?
We can probably steer away from the walmart thing. Its not really about them so much now.
whats it about then? the whiny ignorent christians that believe that from dec 1st to jan 1 its all about jesus and america being a christian nation means no heathen religions get a fair shake?
Sure, Happy Holidays might be better, but if I prefer the worse greeting, I don’t want people saying its wrong that I used it.
i tihnk its just ignorent and unfair to those that don't celebrate a holiday, thus really being meaningless
I don’t think its bad manner because when I wish a stranger a Merry Christmas, it lacks the religious connotation and makes no assumption of their religion.
so, only because you think it doesn't, that it doesn't to everyone else? personally if it wasn't for my family, who are mostly christian anyway i wouldn't celebrate it, i could careless about celebrating the birth of someone who we can't ever know existed or when
More reason for it NOT to be wrong to say it if the odds are the person you’re saying it too is celebrating the christian holiday.
thats my point, you don't know this, happy holidays is better because it doesn't assume something about someone you just met, i find it better to use HH, because you might find someone who truely doesn't want to be told marry christmas, for what ever reasons
Well they’re wrong if they thing that it is a necessity that the greeting is christian
really on what athority are you making this claim?
Well, I don’t assume they’re christian. But anyways, I don’t understand why they get offended by it. Especially when I’m not making that assumption and the greeting isn’t necessarily christian.
because, they do consider it a christian holiday! really CS its not a hard thing to figure out, most muslums do consider it a christian holiday and why the heck would jewish people celebrate christmas?, if you think nearly a bilion people is a small number i'd wonder what a big one is to you
athiests and non-relgious people only call it xmas because thats what they grew up with, if they made up a secular holiday and called it "buy-lots of crap you don't need" day they would call it that
Decent analogy. The liberals are over-sensitive too, to the point that I got to walk on pins and needles and be more careful than I’m willing to be. Then they get mad when I’m not, and they become the ones who are trying to force other people to do thing.
both sides do this, different reasons, cons for money,power and control. dems for absurd idealist, squishy brotherly love hopes
the truth is say what you want, but don't be surprised if people get mad and wonder, thinking about the whys are there, but as far as i can tell you don't seem to step outside your own box much, i do understand your points, its easier, feels normal, and have been doing it for years

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nator
Member (Idle past 2252 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 245 (373231)
12-31-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-31-2006 1:21 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
quote:
I say that majority rules.
Not regarding our Rights.
The Bill of Rights exists specifically to protect the minority from the "tyrrany of the majority".

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 245 (373287)
12-31-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by anastasia
12-31-2006 6:41 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
You never said person B. had to be American.
You have not refuted the point that person {B} is willing if not happy to commit treason (subvert the constitution) to advance his religious beliefs.
Perhaps I don't care to. Maybe commiting treason is not the biggest crime in the world. If this answer is not a propo, then please
rephrase to be more specific.
Previously you said:
Message 67
There is still something to be said for person B.
The question was:
Message 54
Do you think that person {A} is a {better citizen \ more patriotic} if they support the original values and ideals of the founding fathers, as expressed in the constitution and the declaration of independence above ALL other values for the running of their country, ...
... or that person {B} is a {better citizen \ more patriotic} if they put their religious views first and the original values and ideals of the founding fathers second for the running of their country, willing to sacrifice both the constitution and the declaration of independence whenever it conflicts with their religious views?
I will also note that several christian "leaders" like Pat Robertson have advocated ammending the constitution to put the christian religion (their version) in.
I realize these people do not represent all christians.
You have implied or stated that you felt that (all) christians were better citizens or patriots.
What I am showing you is that when they choose their religion over the values of the constitution and declaration of independence for the running of this country that they are NOT being good citizens or patriots.
... especially since most of the earlier celebrations were about the solstice, and science has now proven that to occur on the 20 or 21 of the month on our current calendar.
The current calendar that has been adjusted how many times in the last hundred years? Please. The year also used to start with the spring equinox.
It is interesting and all that good stuff to do the research, but still, who cares?
Yes, because it has become traditional for women to earn less than men for doing the same job, so why should we care about changing that? It's nice to do all that research into the differences in pay scales, but still, they both make money after all eh? Who cares eh?
It is common knowledge that Christmas wasn't in December.
So stop celebrating in december, and tell O'Riley to stuff it with his fake "war" on christmas while you are at it.
... and that some celebrate it on January 7. If it will make you happy I will use that date henceforth.
As long as you find a date that is based on some reality associated with christianity (and has nothing to do with other culture celebrations) I won't fuss. That is my point after all: get it right.
I daresay they could have kept their gods to go along with them if they had wanted.
Do you have any idea how many "heretics" were executed by christians?
Just for not being christian?
People living in theocracies do not get to believe in other religions freely.
This was also carried to this country by the Puritans, where they quickly showed that the oppressed can become the oppressors when they are in control.
The record of christianity is lethal intolerance of other religions. Even of other types of christianity.
It is the American values of freedom, equality, justice and liberty that provide Americans the tolerance to believe what they want.
It is the American values that make America what it is.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 6:41 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 11:28 PM RAZD has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6035 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 89 of 245 (373296)
12-31-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
12-31-2006 10:42 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
RAZD writes:
You have implied or stated that you felt that (all) christians were better citizens or patriots.
No sir. I said that if a particular atheist feels at odds with what he/she feels is the overly deistic nature of this country, that same person MAY not feel patriotic to the same degree as a deist does. They can still be an awesome citizen. I am Catholic. The views of our founding fathers regarding Catholicism don't inspire me with much fondness. I consider myself patriotic in the sense that I love the land, and I consider myself a decent law-abiding citizen. Since this is the case with me, I can't assume that other christians MUST feel more patriotic.
What I am showing you is that when they choose their religion over the values of the constitution and declaration of independence for the running of this country that they are NOT being good citizens or patriots.
This country happens to have pretty decent values. But again, if we talk about some other country where people are treated like crap, who cares about being patriotic? Isn't being a good person more of a priority? And how exactly does Christianity conflict with the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality?
The current calendar that has been adjusted how many times in the last hundred years? Please. The year also used to start with the spring equinox.
I think you are just furthering my point. Christmas is not scurrying to keep up with the calendar changes. It's been the same date since about the year 400.
Yes, because it has become traditional for women to earn less than men for doing the same job, so why should we care about changing that? It's nice to do all that research into the differences in pay scales, but still, they both make money after all eh? Who cares eh?
No, no, no. This is not going to become a one-size fits all argument. I said 'Who cares what day Christmas is celebrated on'? I think it is nice and cute and appropriate to celebrate it on the shortest day of the year (or close to, now) and short of knowing an exact date, a date with some symbolism attached is just fine.
So stop celebrating in december, and tell O'Riley to stuff it with his fake "war" on christmas while you are at it.
I do not know O'Riley personally. For all I know there could be a war on Christmas. I don't care how it started, but if someone doesn't want it here now, they are the perpetrators of THIS day and age.
Do you have any idea how many "heretics" were executed by christians
Yes. And I know how many Christians were executed by Christians just for not being 'heretics'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2006 10:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2007 3:45 AM anastasia has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 90 of 245 (373338)
01-01-2007 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
12-31-2006 11:28 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
No sir. I said that if a particular atheist feels at odds with what he/she feels is the overly deistic nature of this country, that same person MAY not feel patriotic to the same degree as a deist does.
This is the second time I've seen you misuse deist. What you mean is theist. Look them up. Many founding fathers were deists.
Certainly an atheist will not feel patriotic to the theistic values expoused by christian leaders that try to set themselves above the other citizens, but that is no reason to be less patriotic to the American values of equality, liberty, freedom and justice.
In fact when this president seems bent on waging a holy war on the middle east they may be MORE patriotic than those who willingly go off to fight a "crusade" while misusing the name of america.
The views of our founding fathers regarding Catholicism don't inspire me with much fondness.
The founding fathers new first hand the evils of theocracy and what the (catholic) church had become where it held exclusive sway over countries. That did not set them to outlaw the catholic church in the land, just to set up a country where NO church held exclusive sway or even any preferential treatment.
The pilgrims on the other hand felt no such compunction.
Do you have any idea how many "heretics" were executed by christians
Yes. And I know how many Christians were executed by Christians just for not being 'heretics'.
So that this wouldn't happen here.
I do not know O'Riley personally. For all I know there could be a war on Christmas. I don't care how it started,
You don't seem to care about much.
Bill O'Riley brings it up every year, it's part of his hate america show. He's the one who started using this phrase to divide americans.
See http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/28/oreilly-crate-barrel/
Classic right wing nut job rant devoid of reason.
No, no, no. This is not going to become a one-size fits all argument. I said 'Who cares what day Christmas is celebrated on'?
So you don't feel past injustices should be rectified, therefore you don't think womens wages should be the same as mens because that is the traditional result.
It follows from your position logically.
I don't care how it started, but if someone doesn't want it here now, they are the perpetrators of THIS day and age.
This also means that anyone that wants to rectify wages is a perpetrator of the war on men's wages.
Or do you just not care when you are a beneficiary?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 11:28 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 10:19 AM RAZD has replied

  
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