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Author Topic:   War on Christmas
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4364 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 61 of 245 (372473)
12-27-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2006 3:39 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
alacrity fitzhugh writes:
Where in the Constitution is your god mention (hint no god is mentioned).
Its not found in the Constitution, but it is found in the Declaration of Independence.
The declaration is just that a declaration of independence from England. The laws come from the Constitution maybe you should read it?
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
How did Anastasia espouse intolerance, especially when calling her views intolerant is, itself, an act of intolerance?
quote:
I do think that atheist are citizens
msg 50
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Are you suggesting that people are stripped of their citizenship for not believing in the Judeo-Christian God?
quote:
If your trying to equivocate a religious person being ex-communicated with an American being stripped of his citizenship for not believing in your god, that would show your lack of knowledge of the laws of the vary country you preface to love and honor
Do you see the if, that makes this a question not a statement.
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
I hate to break it to you, but bigotry exists everywhere. The most you can do is bridge gaps and teach others to do the same. Crying over spilled milk is pointless. Just be apart of the solution.
Has nothing to do with the issue I posted to.

Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2006 3:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 62 of 245 (372474)
12-27-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by alacrity fitzhugh
12-27-2006 4:48 PM


Sir, with all respect, I think you are getting hot and bothered over two letters.
Please look more carefully at Message 50.
"I DO think that atheists are citizens."
And yes I did state it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 12-27-2006 4:48 PM alacrity fitzhugh has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 245 (372554)
12-28-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
12-27-2006 3:59 PM


Are you talking about the Puritans, or the Founding Fathers here?
Puritans fled from religious persecution who were the parents and grandparents of the Founding Fathers.
The point is, Juggs, that Bush Sr., a US president, stated that American Athiests shouldn't be considered citizens.
Bush Sr comment on how he feels is irrelevant to the state of affairs of an entire nation which Alacrity seemed to imply.
I've listened to the people who called in to C-SPAN when the man who wanted to get "under god" removed from the pledge was a guest. Many of them vehemently told him to get out of America, and consistently proclimed that Athiests shouldn't have any rights, and even that Athiests should be imprisoned.
I guess it goes both ways because I've heard the same vehemence going in the opposite direction. People are entitled to get pissy if they want. It just won't do a lot of good except to further stigmatize themselves, IMO.
As it is, I am very careful to whom I reveal that I don't believe in any supernatural god/s. Most of my family doesn't even know.
Your family doesn't know? Why not?
Nobody's had their US citizenship revoked because they are black, but that doesn't mean there isn't systematic racism and persecution and oppression.
Who exactly is systematically persecuting and oppressing black people, other than a dying breed like the KKK who has about as much clout as the girl scouts? The only fear facing most black people today is the fear of being patronized to death.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 12-27-2006 3:59 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 12-28-2006 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 12:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 66 by nator, posted 12-28-2006 8:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 70 by Coragyps, posted 12-30-2006 5:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34040
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 64 of 245 (372555)
12-28-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
12-28-2006 12:25 PM


More irrelevant assertions.
Puritans fled from religious persecution who were the parents and grandparents of the Founding Fathers.
Excuse me? I know that it seems like George Washington slept everywhere, but are you saying that all the founding fathers were descendants of Puritans? Or are you saying that the Puritans fled from the oppression of the Founding Fathers?
Bush Sr comment on how he feels is irrelevant to the state of affairs of an entire nation which Alacrity seemed to imply.
Excuse me? Comments of the US President are irrelevant to the state of affairs of the US?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-28-2006 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 245 (372556)
12-28-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
12-28-2006 12:25 PM


quote:
Are you suggesting that people are stripped of their citizenship for not believing in the Judeo-Christian God? That would be absurd if so. Just ask the American atheists on the forum if they're citizenship has been revoked.
...
Nobody's had their US citizenship revoked because they are black, but that doesn't mean there isn't systematic racism and persecution and oppression.
Who exactly is systematically persecuting and oppressing black people, other than a dying breed like the KKK who has about as much clout as the girl scouts? The only fear facing most black people today is the fear of being patronized to death.
I think her point was that even though atheist's citezenships aren't being revoked, they are still systematically persecuted and oppressed. Blacks were just used as an example, IIUC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-28-2006 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 245 (372648)
12-28-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
12-28-2006 12:25 PM


quote:
Puritans fled from religious persecution who were the parents and grandparents of the Founding Fathers.
Um, I hadn't heard that the Puritans were the ancestors of many, if any, of the Founding Fathers. Do you have any documentation for this claim?
quote:
Bush Sr comment on how he feels is irrelevant to the state of affairs of an entire nation which Alacrity seemed to imply.
The President of the United States statesd that a group of Americans should NOT be considered citizens nor patriots because they don't believe in the supernatural.
You don't think that this is relevant to the state of affairs in the country?
Pardon?
quote:
I guess it goes both ways because I've heard the same vehemence going in the opposite direction.
Wait. You've heard Athiests sincerely saying that Christians shouldn't have any Constitutional rights, and that Christians should get out of America simply because of their religious beliefs?
You've heard this where? I can link you to transcripts of my claims.
As it is, I am very careful to whom I reveal that I don't believe in any supernatural god/s. Most of my family doesn't even know.
quote:
Your family doesn't know? Why not?
Mostly because I don't want the ill treatment and disrespect and patronizing that I know would result.
...that had already resulted when I made the mistake of telling my sister.
People get very funny when you tell them you have rejected the beliefs that they raised you to believe. They seem to become personally threatened.
quote:
Who exactly is systematically persecuting and oppressing black people, other than a dying breed like the KKK who has about as much clout as the girl scouts?
The culture in general is still racist.
And I don't know if you spend any time in the south, but "nigger jokes" are still pretty popular.
And the KKK has been supplanted by ultra-right wing movements like the Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and many "legitimate" political parties in Europe, particularly in France and Germany.
quote:
The only fear facing most black people today is the fear of being patronized to death.
Oh yeah?
The FBI disagrees with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-28-2006 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 67 of 245 (373059)
12-30-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by anastasia
12-27-2006 2:18 PM


patriotism to which values?
My point is that having citizenship does not automatically mean having patriotism, or following the law of the land does not force a person to admire the morality of a law.
I've read a number of your posts on this thread about citizenship, patriotism and the "in god we trust" issue.
Do you think that person {A} is a {better citizen \ more patriotic} if they support the original values and ideals of the founding fathers, as expressed in the constitution and the declaration of independence above ALL other values for the running of their country, ...
... or that person {B} is a {better citizen \ more patriotic} if they put their religious views first and the original values and ideals of the founding fathers second for the running of their country, willing to sacrifice both the constitution and the declaration of independence whenever it conflicts with their religious views?
Feel free to justify your answer with quotes etc.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by anastasia, posted 12-27-2006 2:18 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 5:17 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 68 of 245 (373063)
12-30-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
12-27-2006 11:46 AM


honesty betrayed
Message 34
I just like insulting liberals. I think its fun and its easy to get a rise out of them. Some of the stuff I post on the internets is total bullshit. Semi-trolling, engaging people. I hope you can tell when I’m being serious and when I’m not, but probably not always.
This is such a good basis for honest debate. I guess this means we can't really trust a thing you say as being an honest statement of your personal position eh?
Can you demonstrate that anything you say should be taken as an honest position?
I do find liberals to be really annoying though.
Especially when they are right and you just can't admit being wrong.
No wonder the RW NJ’s want to “take back” christmas. At least it might become respectable again.
December in reality has nothing to do with the christian "celebration" mythos to begin with, so there is nothing to "take back" - if you disagree, then show me the evidence: historical documentation of some part of the "christmas story" that shows actual records with correlations to some december date.
Why should there be "respect" for a mythos adapted, altered or made up to cover the hi-jacking of some other cultural celebration(s)?
If you want respect for a christian celebration then stop spreading falsehoods and start basing it on reality: stop telling kids (etc) that december 25th is when christ was born, because that certainly is not so.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-27-2006 11:46 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 226 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 245 (373066)
12-30-2006 5:13 PM


A festive Festivus to all and to all a _________.
The obvious, simple solution to this conundrum is to greet everyone with: " a festive Festivus to you and may your name appear rarely in the Airing of Grievances" . The best way to avoid offending anyone is to offend everyone. Further details of this grand solution can be found here

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 810 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 70 of 245 (373069)
12-30-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
12-28-2006 12:25 PM


Puritans fled from religious persecution who were the parents and grandparents of the Founding Fathers.
Lessee...Fleeing Puritans arrived as adults 1620 to 1650, perhaps. Founding Daddies, born no earlier than about 1710, most mre like 1740. Have we maybe a time problem here? D'ya think?
The only fear facing most black people today is the fear of being patronized to death.
My black daughter-in-law and her family would beg to differ with you here. Overt racism is alive and well in 2006 here in the US.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-28-2006 12:25 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 71 of 245 (373070)
12-30-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RAZD
12-30-2006 4:48 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
Dear RAZD,
I don't know if it would be fair to call person A OR person B better. Both of the examples describe people who have a belief and follow it as honestly as possible.
I would say that person A is more patriotic and possibly a better citizen. That is because I define patriotism as supporting the ideals of the country, and if you support the ideals you will most likely follow the laws.
There is still something to be said for person B. There are times when it takes an individual's views to make the country better. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. It is IMO an admirable thing also to adhere to a moral standard that you feel is important in spite of ANY constitution or declaration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 12-30-2006 4:48 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 12-30-2006 6:03 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 12-30-2006 6:32 PM anastasia has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2245 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 245 (373082)
12-30-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by anastasia
12-30-2006 5:17 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
quote:
There is still something to be said for person B. There are times when it takes an individual's views to make the country better. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. It is IMO an admirable thing also to adhere to a moral standard that you feel is important in spite of ANY constitution or declaration.
But...MLK was adhering to the Constitution.
I think that RAZD's point was that when President George H.W. Bush declared that he didn't think that Athiests should be considered citizens nor patriots, he was putting his religious views ahead of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.
For a President to do this, when he had sworn to uphold the Constitution, is shocking.
...or should be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 5:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1480 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 73 of 245 (373090)
12-30-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by anastasia
12-30-2006 5:17 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
There is still something to be said for person B.
No, not when they think government should be run to their religious views over and above those of the founding fathers and that the constitution and declaration of independence should be abandoned or revised when they are in conflict with the religious views.
You are perfectly within your rights to lead YOUR LIFE according to your religious beliefs, but you are NOT within your rights to subvert this country to them, whatever they are.
Subversion of the constitution is treason eh?
That is the essence of reason for the separation of church and state.
For example, Martin Luther King Jr.
I am not aware of MLK advocating running the country according to his religious beliefs above those of the constitution or declaration of independence, but rather of running it according to those ideals being applied to all people: the ideals of equality, liberty, justice and freedom.
Of course you could correct me with specific quotes. Try the "I have a dream" speech.
It is IMO an admirable thing also to adhere to a moral standard that you feel is important in spite of ANY constitution or declaration.
Now we move from "war" on christmas past the issue of which values are and are not {patriotic\citizenship} ones to the issue of what is morality and where does it come from.
Given that all people have morals, no matter what culture they come from and what their beliefs are, there is no possible claim for any religious (or non-) set of belief to have any significant increment of an iota of moral superiority to any other group.
But even if there were, this would still only be a basis for personal behavior and NOT for forcing this country to conform to it whether people wanted to or not - it is not a basis for running this country in conformance to those {undefined "moral" value) views over and above those of the founding fathers or that the constitution and declaration of independence should be abandoned or revised when they are in conflict with the {undefined "moral" value) views.
Personal values are the basis for personal behavior.
Public values are the basis for the population as a whole, with ALL the different personal values involved, to run their governments.
Thus the values of the public as a whole are the basis of govenrment, and in America, those values are freedom, equality, justice, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc: the ones this country were founded on.
Included in that is the freedom (dragging this discussion kicking and screaming back to the topic) to discuss the falseness of the christian "mythos" having any real relationship to december (to say nothing of the 25th) and to point out that it is christians waging a "war" on other cultural beliefs and traditions and trying to make these other cultural beliefs and traditions become subverted by christianity.
Again, you can show I am incorrect by showing some real connection between this christian "mythos" and december. Try the date of a real possible birthday for starters, use whatever source you think is appropriate.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 12-30-2006 5:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by anastasia, posted 12-31-2006 12:35 PM RAZD has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 74 of 245 (373184)
12-31-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
12-30-2006 6:32 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
RAZD writes:
Thus the values of the public as a whole are the basis of govenrment, and in America, those values are freedom, equality, justice, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc: the ones this country were founded on.
If a person is lucky enough to live in a country which upholds these values and if he is able to take the oath of office in good conscience, I can't conceive of any reason why he would subvert a nation to a relgious view.
If a person is elected or ascends to a position where the laws he will be upholding deny the above values, he may be wise to refuse the office or yes, monstrosity of all monstrosities, take some steps to revising the institution.
This country has always been about seperating church and state. There are a few elected officials who feel they must put personal views aside when it comes to things like abortion or cloning. If they choose to do otherwise our democratic system allows for the public to decide who will remain in office, and that no one person has the final say-so.
As it goes, a belief system which follows graded absolutism proposes that we serve first, God, second, fellow man, and third, country. If we chose to take God out of the equation, then I would have to say that ANY constitution which does not embrace respect of fellow man is open to revision, and any personal views, religious or non, which DO embrace respect of fellow man, should be...not forced...but certainly upheld regardless of law. This is what MLK did. His views may not have been contradictory to the constitution, but he did point out the discrepencies in the values of this country and the personal values of the founding fathers.
Included in that is the freedom (dragging this discussion kicking and screaming back to the topic) to discuss the falseness of the christian "mythos" having any real relationship to december (to say nothing of the 25th) and to point out that it is christians waging a "war" on other cultural beliefs and traditions and trying to make these other cultural beliefs and traditions become subverted by christianity.
I don't think there are very many people who actually think Jesus was born on December 25. Even as a little girl I asked my mom 'how do we know'? Who cares? Things evolve. If people want to get all steamy about a 'war' that was over for the most part 1600 years ago, fine. Our laws currently allow for the practice of Saturnalia, Yule, Solstice, or none at all. I have been to Yule celebrations and I see no reason why they can not be celebrated as complimentary to each other.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 12-30-2006 6:32 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2006 5:04 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 75 of 245 (373187)
12-31-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
12-30-2006 6:03 PM


Re: patriotism to which values?
schrafinator writes:
I think that RAZD's point was that when President George H.W. Bush declared that he didn't think that Athiests should be considered citizens nor patriots, he was putting his religious views ahead of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Our laws allow for freedom to practice any religion without regulation. It does not say 'freedom from religion' but 'freedom of religion'. By law, Bush can BELIEVE and SPEAK whatever he wishes, but he can not enact any policy to enforce his belief. Did he?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-31-2006 1:13 PM anastasia has replied

  
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