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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Could God create a rock so heavy that even he could not move it? That's kindof a non-question, but... An omnipotent god could create a rock so heavy that he could not move it while simultaneously being able to move it, existing in logical contradiction, and not, forever and instantly, in the past and the future. I mean, how far(ridiculous) do we have to take this? What's the point?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3980 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
If my example is illogical, how can the belief itself be "believable"
Is it simply because God is beyond Logic ? But if he is, then how can we ever understand his teaching ?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 6161 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Catholic Scientist
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
Why not? That's the same question. What's your point? Let's cut to the chase...
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sidelined Member (Idle past 6161 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Catholic Scientist
That's the same question Actually it is not since non omnipotence can be any level up to but falling short of omnipotence itself. Anyway we need to resolve how a God can engage in the logical impossibilities if he is powerless and how such a state{ Omnipotence and impotence} can been considered achievable even in a world without rules of logic.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
That's the same question Actually it is not since non omnipotence can be any level up to but falling short of omnipotence itself.
You're right, I overlooked that.
How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time?
The reason I would say that he could is becuase if I said that he couldn't then it wouldn't be omnipotence in the first place.
Anyway we need to resolve how a God can engage in the logical impossibilities if he is powerless and how such a state{ Omnipotence and impotence} can been considered achievable even in a world without rules of logic. If it is omnipotence then everything is acheivable. Why do we have to come up with how its possible?
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anastasia Member (Idle past 6206 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Dear Kader,
Have you ever heard of theoligical determinism and compatibilism? There are many possible positions one could take on the issue of free will. The one used by Judeo-Christian religions is the above. To explain, God is omniscient, period. We have free will, period. They do not cancel each other out. It is not hard to grasp, really. There have been examples in court cases where a lawyer has argued determinism as a way to exonerate a prisoner. If all things are naturally GOING to happen, are they predetermined by NATURE? Or do we dictate to an extent what DOES happen? We don't need to even bring God into the picture to see that this type of reasoning will probably not get the guilty pardoned. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 6161 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Catholic Scientist
Why do we have to come up with how its possible? Because while the omnipotence side of the equation works at the same time we have powerlessness which negates the ability so it now becomes a case concerning what it means to allow for logical impossibilities. Can we indeed allow for logical impossibility while at the same time maintaining a definition of Omnipotence and powerlessness whose states depend upon logical structures in order to define them?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Because while the omnipotence side of the equation works at the same time we have powerlessness which negates the ability so it now becomes a case concerning what it means to allow for logical impossibilities. Honestly, I don't think it means very much. It might even be meaningless.
Can we indeed allow for logical impossibility while at the same time maintaining a definition of Omnipotence and powerlessness whose states depend upon logical structures in order to define them? Ummmmmmm........no? I don't really know. I'd say that you can't really maintain the definition of omnipotence if you not going to allow it to include logical impossibilities.
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VerifyMe Inactive Member |
An omnipotent god could create a rock so heavy that he could not move it while simultaneously being able to move it, existing in logical contradiction, and not, forever and instantly, in the past and the future. I mean, how far(ridiculous) do we have to take this? What's the point? My point is how rediculous god is starting to sound.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
My point is how rediculous god is starting to sound. Becuase of the omnipotence, which I admitted was ridiculous in Message 7.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 6206 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
sidelined writes: How about Omnipotent and powerless at the same time? omnipotent and powerless?God and Man?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3980 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
quote: What a nice way to make everything fitcomptabilism just change the definition a bit to make it so the new definition of free will is now compatible with Omniscience It is not hard to grasp, really. There have been examples in court cases where a lawyer has argued determinism as a way to exonerate a prisoner. If all things are naturally GOING to happen, are they predetermined by NATURE? Or do we dictate to an extent what DOES happen? We don't need to even bring God into the picture to see that this type of reasoning will probably not get the guilty pardoned. Yet in my example, how can the guy who shoots have free will ?If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ? Edited by Kader, : No reason given.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 6206 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Kader writes: Yet in my example, how can the guy who shoots have free will ?If its easy to grasp, it must be easy to explain ? You will need to give me your example again. I did not get it the first time around.
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nator Member (Idle past 2423 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, just about every major theologian disagrees with you. The problem is that you cannot escape the logical implications in the definition of "omnipotence". "Omnipotence" as a concept is inescapably subject to logic. It is simply incoherent and meaningless to say that god is powerless and omnipotent at the same time.
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