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Author Topic:   A Miracle by Definition
VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 38 (372392)
12-27-2006 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-26-2006 11:29 PM


Would winning the Powerball be defined as a miracle or only a fulfillment of astronomical odds?
IMO, a miracle is something which is against the odds like winning Powerball, but also something with exceptional or unusual circumstances. For example if you won Powerball with a ticket that you found in the gutter, that would be a miracle.
If an individual had massive cancer in their body and a month or two later the Doctor found no cancer whatsoever, would this qualify as potential divine intervention?
If the doctor can explain why there is suddenly no cancer, then it is just an occurance of a very improbable event. If there is no evidence as in the cancer just disappears and nothing can be found which may indicate why, then theres something more to it.
Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
Well there is ALWAYS the possibility of something happening or not happening. If i keep rolling a dice for the rest of my life i may never see a six. I may only ever see sixes. So according to the laws of probability, theres still a possibility everything could happen eventually. Probable or inprobable? well i think theres an infinite number of situations and variables to be able to ever guess.
I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?
Edited by VerifyMe, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 11:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-27-2006 7:41 AM VerifyMe has not replied
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 AM VerifyMe has replied
 Message 25 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:01 PM VerifyMe has replied

  
VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 38 (372637)
12-28-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-28-2006 5:56 AM


Upon reflection I agree with most of your post, but to answer your question
Why then in the case of cancer does the fact that it can be explained suddenly make it less of a miracle? It is still equally as improbable, whether explainable or not.
Going by my definition (which after reading your post, I can admit the flaws), the fact that a situation can be explained does not change the probability, but to me eliminates the exceptional circumstances. If the doctor said “X caused Y to change so we could treat the cancer with Z”, as apposed to “ Well we treated the cancer with Z and it suddenly disappeared”, the the former seems a lot less miraculous.
What does whether time is infinite or not have to do with the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event happening here and now?
My statement “I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?” was in response to this from Phat:
Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
The probability of something happening depends on the number of trials an event has had. If a dice was thrown every minute for the rest of time if it was infinite, a six is infinitely more likely to occur eventually than if time was finite, as there would be a limited number of rolls and always the possibility of a six not being rolled in that finite time.
So if you believe time goes on forever, the chances of everything in life being bound to happen are infinitely greater than if time was finite, and there was only a number of finite situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-29-2006 12:33 AM VerifyMe has replied

  
VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 38 (372638)
12-28-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:01 PM


If you mean God by something more to it, I disagree. Ignorance doesn't prove the existance of God.
Otherwise, yes what you said is true, there is something more, that we just don't yet understand.
I agree completely. A lack of understanding does not prove the existance of god, but it does mean people are more likely to name it a miracle because they don't understand it. Which is I believe why the many "miracles" throughout history were merely a fill in the blanks with Goddidit reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:01 PM Kader has not replied

  
VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 38 (372680)
12-29-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-29-2006 12:33 AM


That doesn't follow. We can easily explain how you managed to win the lottery with the Powerball ticket in the gutter. Perhaps Joe Schmoe dropped it on his way to work, or some fool tossed it out their window thinking it was a loser. If we can explain how the ticket is a winner (because it matches the chosen numbers) and how it got in your hands, does that make winning the Powerball for you to be any less of a miracle?
Exaclty, which is why i now see the flaws of my definition. I merely used that definition to answer one of your previous questions because the context of that question related to that definition.
But for that to be true, life too would have to be infinite, not just time. Suppose time is infinite, does that give me an infinite probability that I will walk on Mars? Of course it doesn't, because in 70 more years ( ), I will be dead. And after that, the chance of Jon (me) ever standing on Mars becomes impossible despite the infinity of time. And, since we are pretty sure that everyone will die, every mountain will fall, every star will burn out, etc., the question of whether time is infinite or not still has no bearing on the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event.
This is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-29-2006 12:33 AM Jon has not replied

  
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