Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Miracle by Definition
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5982 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 8 of 38 (372416)
12-27-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-27-2006 8:13 AM


Miracles
Well, phat, to answer your question.
I would not consider the examples you have given as being miraculous. Any one of us would be thrilled to win the Powerball, or receive a sudden cure of terminal illness. I do think however that even the winner of the ticket would not consider it a true miracle, but maybe a gift of God's providence.
As I see it God has no concern for monetary gains or temporary departure from an inevitable death. These are ends in themselves, and human ends at that.
A miracle IMO is something albeit natural and highly improbable, which serves as a means to an end, and specifically a spiritual end.
I have not known the occasion of winning the lottery to bring about a conversion for example.
So what does concern God? We xianists would say 'the salvation of souls' and I might also add 'the preservation of His truth'. In the OT God is said to have intervened many times in order to strengthen the faith of His people and to clarify His will. I see no reason why this could not be continuing today.
But think about Moses and the burning bush. If the story is true, I would think that modern science could find a few causes for a burning bush, maybe even one not consumed by the fire. I would not consider that as evidence that a miracle did not occur, but just change the defintion of miracle. I would say that God can use highly unusual natural signs to get our attention, but I would always look to the end result of the occurence.
There are no 'miracles' which can be proven to have come from a God. That would be too much like God leaving evidence, and that would defeat the purpose of faith. But there are many instances of natural happenings of unlikely odds or unknown origin which have greatly changed the course of a religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-27-2006 8:13 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 11:16 AM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5982 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 11 of 38 (372424)
12-27-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-27-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Miracles
Ringo writes:
Take a fairly well-known miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. There is little or no evidence that it happened or that Jesus even existed. The course of the religion was influenced by people's belief in the event. Faith being the evidence of things not seen, it doesn't seem important for the miracle to be seen at all.
Well, let's not talk about the resurrection at present, since it is so unprovable.
But I am interested in why people have faith in some events and not others.
For example, there are many reports of miraculous springs coming from heretofore dry rock. Many times the springs are seen as a sign of God.
Recently there was an unusual 'spring' if sap gushing from a tree trunk, but I heard no one claim that it was a sign, and the odds are that the discoverer of the sap rush had some faith background.
Also there are tales of levitations of priests which have cause faith in their holiness, but a magician only cuases faith in his skill when performing such feats.
How would we account for human nature having faith in one thing and not another? This is just a simple question BTW and not intended as evidence of any kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 12:03 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5982 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 13 of 38 (372439)
12-27-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
12-27-2006 12:03 PM


Re: Miracles
Ringo writes:
Myself, if I saw a priest levitiating, my first question would be, "How does he do that?" and my second question would be, "What's the scam?" The possibility of a "miracle" wouldn't enter my head.
And what if you found no evidence of scam or natural cause? Is it foolish to attribute the happening to something extraordinary, or only if we call the extraordinary for now 'God'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 2:00 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5982 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 19 of 38 (372467)
12-27-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
12-27-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Miracles
Ringo writes:
My point was that one subset of humanity attributes the unknown to "supernatural" causes. It isn't fair to tar us all with the same brush by calling it "human nature".
I get what you are trying to say, but just what would you term this other 'nature'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 2:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 12-27-2006 5:16 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024