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Author Topic:   Has there ever been a computer modelling of abiogenesis?
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 1 of 10 (369578)
12-13-2006 5:28 PM


This just popped into my mind. There are lots of computer modelling of weather, galaxy formations, ecosystems and such. But has there ever been a decent attempt to make a computer scenario/model of abiogenesis happening? With all the chemicals reacting and such. Even if only to a very primitive stage, has it been done?
If not, why? The formations of galaxies and atoms reacting must be as hard to model as chemical reactions resulting into more complex forms and eventually to "life".
I suggest coffee house because this is not really a science topic.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 10 (369586)
12-13-2006 5:40 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4774 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 3 of 10 (369720)
12-14-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
12-13-2006 5:28 PM


Yes, a few
Hi Neutralmind, the short answer is "yes, plenty." The main journal of origins of life research is "Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres," (http://www.springerlink.com/content/1573-0875/). Other journals where this sort of research is found include the "Journal of Molecular Evolution," (http://www.springerlink.com/content/1432-1432/).
I believe the first computer model was put forth by the physicist Freeman Dyson in 1982 who used equations from principles of ferromagnetism to infer the qualities of "living systems." Since then there's been a lot of work by a number of other individuals in the field, but since I don't have access to Web of Science on this computer and since I'm not in this branch of the field, I can't give you much more info right now. Give me a bit and I'll post some more examples.
However, a lot of the researchers in the field do not like using computer models to simulate abiogenesis for two reasons. 1) A lot of the data that is necessary for an adequate abiotic simulation of a set of chemical reactions is not known, and 2) It's very easy to omit key chemical reactions that could result in complete invalidation of a model's conclusions. Several of the models on abiogenesis get around this by simulating chemical systems with reactions like "A-->B" with adjustable reaction rates, and the results are actually interesting.

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 4 of 10 (369750)
12-14-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
12-13-2006 5:28 PM


Neutralmind, you wrote:
This just popped into my mind. There are lots of computer modelling of weather, galaxy formations, ecosystems and such. But has there ever been a decent attempt to make a computer scenario/model of abiogenesis happening? With all the chemicals reacting and such. Even if only to a very primitive stage, has it been done?
If not, why? The formations of galaxies and atoms reacting must be as hard to model as chemical reactions resulting into more complex forms and eventually to "life".
I think you are asking for quite a lot here. Given my own predisposition on abiogenesis, I'd have to say that you are focusing too heavily on the mechanical parts (I've bolded them in your quote) and not enough on the encoded instructions”the genes. Building just one protein without a gene would be something like building a Boeing 747 without an instruction manual.
”Hoot Mon

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 10 (369756)
12-14-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Fosdick
12-14-2006 2:30 PM


Hoot Mon writes:
Building just one protein without a gene would be something like building a Boeing 747 without an instruction manual.
The Wright brothers didn't have an instruction manual.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 6 of 10 (369764)
12-14-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
12-14-2006 2:54 PM


and proteins are made of a sequence of amino acids, the same molecules making DNA, our genes (leaving out histone proteins for the moment, not necessary)
DNA is split. RNA copies one side. Ribosome makes opposite copy of that side, churning out protein. what do you, the instruction manual is built into it.
(yeah, way to simplistic, and I'm probably leaving some key part out, but . . .)

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 10 (369840)
12-14-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
12-13-2006 5:28 PM


If not, why? The formations of galaxies ... must be as hard to model as chemical reactions resulting into more complex forms and eventually to "life".
Well, this is where you're wrong. Modelling bichemisty can be excruciatingly difficult, this is why people still do experiments.
For example, consider the infamous Protein Folding Problem.
quote:
In fact, it takes about a day to simulate a nanosecond (1/1,000,000,000 of a second). Unfortunately, proteins fold on the tens of microsecond timescale (10,000 nanoseconds). Thus, it would take 10,000 CPU days to simulate folding -- i.e. it would take 30 CPU years!
My emphasis.
Hence, Folding@Home are proud to boast that
quote:
Thus, with power of Folding@Home (over 100,000 processors), we have successfully smashed the microsecond barrier, simulating milliseconds of folding time.
You got that? With a pooled effort of 100,000 computers, they've successfully managed to simulate milliseconds of biochemistry. It's only taken them six years. And this is such a remarkable achievement that they're bragging about it.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 8 of 10 (369859)
12-15-2006 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
12-14-2006 10:57 PM


World Grid
this is quite possibly why there are two proteome folding projects on the World Grid. (i think that's the name of the projects--there are several others about to, or are, running)
My computer is also handling a climate simulation project--running weather from 1920 to 2080. after 1300 hours of runtime, I'm in 2009.

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 9 of 10 (369872)
12-15-2006 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
12-14-2006 10:57 PM


Can someone point me to the thread on all the different grid projects? It's time I put my Dual Core 2 6600 to some real use

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 10 (369885)
12-15-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by cavediver
12-15-2006 7:08 AM


Right now there are two Grid Projects going. One is listed in the message above and is related to Climate Modeling.
The other is World Community Grid where we are currently working on four projects.
  • FightAIDS@Home
  • Genome Comparison
  • Help Defeat Cancer which is a test to build a more rapid diagnostic process
  • Human Proteome Folding 2
There are two agents that can be used. One you can get directly at World Community Grid while the other can be found at BOINC.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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