Peanut Gallery for Brian and Buz's Exodus debate

A few people have expressed interest in the Exodus debate, a couple on the thread itself.8upwidit2 has expressed an interest through an email and is happy for me to respond here at the forum.I am sure there are many other issues that will crop up that general members would like to discuss, so I think the thread merits a peanut gallery.8upwidit2 provided the following response which was hidden at the original thread. Sorry to interrupt you guys, and I am truly enjoying the exchanges. But we also have to consider another issue in the discussion of time required getting from one place to another.

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If there were only 3 feet between each row and 10 people per row, using the 3 million people figure, there would be 300,000 rows encompassing 900,000 feet of people in line..that's 171 miles long.

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Assume for arguments sake, they went directly to the Red Sea. If the Red Sea was 120 miles (as Brian stated) from where they left captivity in Egypt, Israelites were already at the Red Sea shore before nearly a million of them even left their starting spot.

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How long did it take for the entire group to even leave "captivity"? My fuzzy math tells me the leaving took 29 days if they traveled 24 hours a day.

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But if we consider the stopping and camping and just ratting off, they probably traveled only 10-12 hours a day. This doubles the leaving time to 58 days and the last of the group getting to the Red Sea as many as 80 days after the first of the group. The first of the group would have been waiting for the rest to get there for just less than 3 months.

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We also know that the pharaoh, whomever he was, "noticed that they had fled" and pursued them. Could this be the epitome of not paying attention to not notice 3 million people leaving for nearly 3 months?

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How does this compute with the traveling/camping time listed in Exodus? Isn’t this another issue of the numbers just not working out?My response is:The scenario is actually worse than you first suspect. You haven't taken into consideration that for 3 million people we would expect to have around 300 000 cattle of various descriptions as well! Add carts to this and the scenario is even more implausible.John Bright estimated that the column of Israelites would be well over 300 miles long, and would stretch all the way across the Sinai desert and back again.There is something far wrong with the number given by the Bible, least of all is the fact that it is impossible for 70 people to become 3 million in just over 430 years (Some texts 215 years).Brian.

Accuracy and inerrancy Phat please.

I think Buz has painted himself into a corner with these 2 conflicting sources. While he suggests that the chronologies are flexible, his sources are not suggesting this, it is his sources that give the conflicting dates.If Ahmoses was the pharaoh of the Exodus then the biblical account is a joke because Ahmoses chased the Hyksos all the way across to Saruhen where there followed a 3 year siege by Ahmoses and the Egyptian armies, no mean feat since according to the Bible all of pharaoh's armies perished in the Red Sea! Plus, the Hyksos ruled Egypt, and their empire may even have stretched right across to Syria, it certainly went beyond Egypt. There is simply no parallels between the Hyksos and the Hebrews.The thing is, I could personally make quite a strong case for there being Hebrews in Egypt during the time we are looking at but the evidence is all circumstantial (BTW Buz hasn't even hinted at any of the top quality sources), there is NO direct evidence of Hebrews in Egypt during the second millenium BCE, this is a fact. Hopefully Buz will soon realise this, but we will wait and see.Brian.

I actually think ten per row is excesive and that (as John Bright) four per row is more realistic.Remember that all they had to do was come to a narrow path and they were going to bottleneck. No, but we do know how to convert biblical measurements in to US/UK measurements.A cubit is about 18 inches, not difficult to work out.Also, 3 feet between rows is not at all plausible, at least not between all rows. The Israelites would have had hundreds of thousands of animals with them and tens of thousands of carts as well. The column would extend for close on 400 miles.It is ridiculous.Brian.

Okay, 6 per row, now how many animals would they have with them and how many carts?How far a distance between each row and how many miles long would that make the column? What difference would that make? What governmental problems?They didn't pass through any countries they left Egypt, wandered around a desert, then fought to get into a province of Egypt.What neighbouring countries were there? The Bible explains the reason for the forty years, it was a punishment from God. They spent 38 of the 40 years at Kadesh-Barnea before attacking Canaan. However, there is no sign of occupation at Kadesh-Barnea, making the story impossible. The length of the people is important because it makes the logistics look silly. Well about 3 million set out so that's the important figure, and a ludicrous one. Exactly how many miles a day do you think a nomadic group, complete with livestock can cover? But about 99% of the column of Israelites would still be in Egypt waiting on the front rows moving! I would also like to think that pharaoh's crack charioteers can travel slightly faster than anyone on foot. That's what the fairytale says. What is the point you are trying to make about not travelling in straight lines? What villages were there for them to go to? You are wrong.The Sinai desert could not sustain a group of 3 million, there simply isn't enough food or water.The growth rate required for a group of 70 to grow to 3 million in 430 years is similarly impossible.The enslavement and Exodus simply did not happen. It is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.Brian.

Hi, Due to all available archaeological, anthropological and historical information.The time and place that the Exodus was said to have occurred in makes it impossible to acheive and sustain the required population growth for the 430 years that the Hebrews were said to have been in Egypt.Population growth rates from ancient times are calculated from the remians of cities, villages, and other settlements, plus the extension of cultivated land. ( 1997. Livi-Bacci, M, A concise history of world population, Cambridge, MA : Blackwell, p.30) We also know from archaeological information that the area was well known for its frequent famines, plagues, and poor living conditions. Also, given that the Hebrews were said to be slaves, they would hardly have a higher population growth rate than their masters.At the time of the Exodus, by biblical chronology c. 1446 BCE, if the Hebrews had reached such numbers then no wonder the pharaoh was worried as he had an army of, at most, 20 000 men (1958 Mendenhall, G The Census Lists of Numbers 1 and 26 JBL 77 pp 64-65). The figures suggested by the Bible are ludicrous at face value, we really need to reinterpret what 'eleph was supposed to mean in the population context. If it means 'family' or 'tent', then it is at least plausible, whereas the 3 million figure is laughable.Brian.

Thus, ladies and gentlemen, we leave the realms of historical research and enter the world of fantasy.Brian.