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| Author | Topic: Free will in Heaven | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days)  Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: By definition, any rational creature who was in the presence and communion with the Creator would be irrational to not freely choose to be with that Creator.... Any rational creature would be irrational? Not "by definition", I don't think.  Since when does free will have anything to do with rationality? Human beings freely make irrational choices all the time. In fact, our irrational choices may well outnumber our rational ones. Why would the presence of and communion with the Creator change our (created) nature?
... and indeed to surrender the need to change anything. That seems contradictory. Surrender is seldom a free choice. It's a last resort in the face of disaster, a lesser-of-two-evils cut-your-losses option. Hardly a "free" choice (though it may be the rational one). My dad used to cite Henry Ford: "You can have the Model T in any color you want - as long as you want black". Not my idea of "heaven". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: ... by definition should we not have to agree that God is the ultimate security...the ultimate parent...the ultimate source of stability...before we could be happy in Heaven? If nothing else, I'm going to train you to stop claiming that all of your opinions are "by definition".  On earth, we feel more secure and more stable if we don't depend on external sources for security and stability. We are happier when we are empowered - i.e. when we have control. On earth, we would rather exercise our free will than snuggle up on daddy's lap all our lives. So why do you think it would be different in heaven?
Its not as if Heaven is a democracy, after all. Why not? A democracy allows the most people to have the most happiness on earth. Why not in heaven?
I would conclude that any free will that we had going in to Heaven would be laid at the feet of the Master. That's not a conclusion, it's an assumption.
Any free will that we had in Heaven would of course have to be given to us by God. Point being: Why is free will a good thing on earth, but not in heaven? Edited by Ringo, : Spelling. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: If you are on a hike and you are unsure of the territory, don't you defer your right to guide yourself to the leader who knows where he/she is going? Real men don't ask for directions. You're assuming that we've already chosen a destination and we want to get there with the least amount of trouble. That's not a hike, that's a commute. Hiking without a guide is an adventure.
What is it about surrendering free will to God that strikes such a terror in peoples hearts? Why do religionists insist that we have free will, but we shouldn't use it?
Sometimes, its wise to listen to Daddy....especially if He knows the territory and we don't. Sometimes. Other times, it's better to explore the territory on our own. Did Daddy build the territory just so we could see it out the window? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: We exist to please Him rather than He existing to please us. Where's your humility? What can you do to "please" God that He could't do a billion billion times better Himself? Do children exist to please their parents? Or do parents have a responsibility to their children?
The question is also this: Does God plan on dealing with freewill humans who wish to have a democracy with Him? As I have said, I don't know what God's "plans" are and neither do you (though you have a penchant for asserting them ). I asked you: Doesn't it seem likely that God would "design" heaven to be the way we would like it? In what way would it be "heaven" if it wasn't designed to please us?
I will agree with you on only one basic point.
Ringo writes: What do we know about "the summation of everything God intends or foreknows"? And the answer is that we do not collectively know. Nor do we individually know. We can only surmise what makes sense to us. And heaven as a giant prison camp doesn't make sense. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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