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Author Topic:   The Bible has no contradictions
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 221 (36180)
04-03-2003 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by nator
03-28-2003 7:03 AM


bump.
Conspirator, how is your research going?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nator, posted 03-28-2003 7:03 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by nator, posted 04-05-2003 6:43 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 107 of 221 (36346)
04-05-2003 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
04-03-2003 6:58 AM


bumpety-bump.
YOOOO HOOOO!...
ConSPIIIIIIRATOOOOOOOR...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nator, posted 04-03-2003 6:58 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-09-2003 1:50 AM nator has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 108 of 221 (36552)
04-09-2003 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by nator
04-05-2003 6:43 PM


I think that Schrafinator should hereby be known as "Bumpy".
As in "The word was out, that you don't want to mess with Bumpy".
Moose
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 04-09-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by nator, posted 04-05-2003 6:43 PM nator has not replied

Conspirator
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 221 (37016)
04-14-2003 7:06 PM


schrafinator, I can't seem to find an answer to your contradiction. I don't know when I'll get around to finding an answer, but I've been so busy lately. Anyway, thanks for your time and participation in this topic. I don't want this topic to die just yet...

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Brian, posted 04-14-2003 7:35 PM Conspirator has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 110 of 221 (37019)
04-14-2003 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Conspirator
04-14-2003 7:06 PM


Hi conspirator,
Do you think then that maybe there could be one or two contradictions in the Bible.
I don't mean to be nasty, but if you look at how the Bible was transmitted for centuries, then perhaps an error or two may have crept in. Maybe even a translational error, but even if there are some small errors, it doesnt mean that Jesus isn't God, or that the essential message of the Bible is wrong.
Best Wishes
Brian
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Conspirator, posted 04-14-2003 7:06 PM Conspirator has not replied

Conspirator
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 221 (37090)
04-15-2003 2:40 PM


Well, yeah. I think parts of the Bible have contradictions in it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Gzus, posted 04-16-2003 10:44 AM Conspirator has not replied
 Message 113 by nator, posted 04-16-2003 11:19 AM Conspirator has not replied

Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 221 (37099)
04-16-2003 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Conspirator
04-15-2003 2:40 PM


I admire your honesty

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Conspirator, posted 04-15-2003 2:40 PM Conspirator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 113 of 221 (37104)
04-16-2003 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Conspirator
04-15-2003 2:40 PM


Well, good for you for admitting that the Bible has contradictions.
There is no reason to think, however, that it is any less valuable or sacred a book, if one is a believer.
It does require, however, that one not settle for simplistic, literal interpretations of it's contents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Conspirator, posted 04-15-2003 2:40 PM Conspirator has not replied

Paul
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 221 (37239)
04-17-2003 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
03-12-2003 7:16 AM


Re: another contradiction
Hi Schraf :-)
I just read your message and wanted to respond. I do have some refferences so if you have a Bible it would be good to grab it.
Mt.22:62, Mk.15:42, Lk.23:54, Jn.19:14 make it very clear that Jesus Christ was crucified "on" the Day of Preperation. This day allowed the Pachal lamb to be sacrificed and prepared for the next day which of course was the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which began with the Passover feast itself. This feast lasted for 7 days and began on the 15th. day if Nisan(would be our month of April) every year. The month of Nisan was considered the beginning of the Jewish sacred year. A Jewish day runs from sunset to sunset.
All four Gospels make it very clear that Jesus and the desciples ate the passover meal together and did this ahead of time in the beginning stages of Preperation Day itself in the very early evening. Mt26:20, Mk.14:17, Lk.22:14, Jn.12:1.
All four Gospels make it very clear that he was betrayed and arrested in the early evening of that same day, following the last supper and of course still in the early stages of Preperation Day Mt.26:47-56, Mk14:43-52, Lk.22:47-53, Jn.18:2-11.
All four Gospels make it very clear that he was on trial for most of the late night and morning hours of the first part of Preperation day, seeing many different accusers and some (Pilate) more than once Mt.26:57-67,27:1-26, Mk.14:53-65,15:1-15, Lk.22:54-71,23:1-26 Jn.18,19:1-15.
In John 19:14 he makes reference to the time being the "sixth hour" meaning it was 12:00 midnight and also clearly names it as part of Preperation Day, the day before passover.
In John 19:31 it is also made very clear that Jesus was hanging on the cross "on" Preperation day the day before the passover feast. The Jews were very afraid that Jesus would not die before the end of Preperation Day thus continuing to hang on the cross past sunset and therefore into the next day which was the beginning of passover and a special sabbath for that occasion. So they asked to break his legs to speed up the process. But of course he was already dead.
Mt27:62 also makes it very clear that Jesus was crucified "on" the Preperation Day, seeing that the Pharisees asked for a special gaurd the next day after to watch over the tomb so that his body would not be stolen.
As I stated earlier Prep Day was the day Jews sacrificed and prepared the Pachal lamb for the passover the next day. The hours to do this were from 12:00 noon to 3:00 pm. Prep Day and it was done at the temple. Whats amazing is Jesus Christ hung on the cross for those exact same hours, the Sacrificial Lamb for the sins of the world.
Clearly he was crucified before the Passover and verified by all four Gospels.
Hope this helps :-)
Respectfully, Paul :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 03-12-2003 7:16 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by John, posted 04-18-2003 6:11 AM Paul has not replied
 Message 116 by Percy, posted 04-18-2003 9:31 AM Paul has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 221 (37250)
04-18-2003 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Paul
04-17-2003 9:26 PM


Re: another contradiction
quote:
All four Gospels make it very clear that Jesus and the desciples ate the passover meal together and did this ahead of time in the beginning stages of Preperation Day itself in the very early evening. Mt26:20, Mk.14:17, Lk.22:14, Jn.12:1.
All four Gospels make it very clear that he was betrayed and arrested in the early evening of that same day, following the last supper and of course still in the early stages of Preperation Day Mt.26:47-56, Mk14:43-52, Lk.22:47-53, Jn.18:2-11.
All four Gospels make it very clear that he was on trial for most of the late night and morning hours of the first part of Preperation day, seeing many different accusers and some (Pilate) more than once Mt.26:57-67,27:1-26, Mk.14:53-65,15:1-15, Lk.22:54-71,23:1-26 Jn.18,19:1-15.

These three paragraphs make no sense.
Paragraph 1: Jesus and the disciples eat a meal in the early evening on preparation day.
That they ate the meal in early evening automatically puts in ON passover, unless the evening to which you refer is the evening beginning the day of preparation. But then, we find in Matthew 26:19-20 ( and Mark 14:12 ) that the disciples had MADE READY the passover and then waited for evening, so this interpretation doesn't hold. The meal Christ ate was the passover meal and it appears to have been eaten on time. The references to preparation and passover don't make sense otherwise.
Paragraph 2: Christ is betrayed and arrested in the early stages of preparation day.
You have the same problems here as you had in paragraph #1. Having Christ arrested in the early evening of preparation day puts the arrest a full 24 hours before the passover meal and PRIOR to the day in which they would have prepared-- and according to the text, did prepare-- it.
Paragraph 3: Christ was on trial for most of the late night and morning hours of the first part of Preperation day.
Yet after the preparation and the meal? This is the most confusing of part of your account. Take the evening marking the beginning of the passover as a reference. The prior evening-- 24 hours back in time-- is the only possible evening in which Christ could have eaten a meal in the early evening, been on trial all night, and cruxified before passover. Yet, at the same time, all of this would have had to have happened BEFORE the preparation of the passover meal. According to the text, it all happened after such preparation. According to your rendering, even, it happened after the preparation of the passover meal.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Paul, posted 04-17-2003 9:26 PM Paul has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 116 of 221 (37256)
04-18-2003 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Paul
04-17-2003 9:26 PM


Re: another contradiction
Hi Paul,
Mt 22:62 doesn't exist, you probably meant Mt 27:62 where it describes the day after Jesus's crucifixion as The next day, the one after Preparation Day... Thus, according to Matthew Jesus died on Preparation Day. Thus the order of events according to Matthew was (when referring to a 24-hour day beginning at midnight I say simply day, but when referring to a day beginning at sunset I put day in bold italics):
  • Day before Passover during the daytime: preparation by disciples for Passover (Mt 26:17).
  • 1st day of Passover, evening of same day: the Last Supper, Jesus is arrested. Referred to as Preparation Day in Mt 27:62.
  • 1st day of Passover, but the next day: trial of Jesus before Pontius Pilate followed by the crucifixion and the death of Jesus. This would still be Preparation Day.
  • 1st or 2nd day of Passover: Jesus is placed in a tomb toward evening, impossible to tell if this was done before sunset, and so impossible to tell if it took place on the 1st or 2nd day of Passover.
  • 2nd day of Passover, the next day: Pharisees request that tomb be made secure (Mt 27:62-64).
This means the Preparation Day was *not* the day before Passover, but was the first day of Passover. According to Matthew Jesus's disciples prepared for the Passover meal on the day before Preparation Day, and ate that Passover meal at the beginning of Preparation Day, which was the evening of the same 24-hour day. Passover had begun, and the Last Supper was a Passover meal. Young's Bible Dictionary concurs:
Last Supper Though this combination of words is not found in the Bible, it refers to the supper on the evening before the crucifixion of Jesus when he sat down to a Passover supper and converted it into what the church considers the first Communion or eucharistic service.
--Percy
PS - In what I've written above I've interpreted the Matthew passages as if every day referred to is one that begins at sunset, but there are more than a few contexts where this interpretation seems shaky at best. If the text actually *does* move back and forth between different meanings of the word day then other interpretations are possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Paul, posted 04-17-2003 9:26 PM Paul has not replied

wally
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 221 (37441)
04-21-2003 11:02 AM


Hello
Hi This is my first post on the board here.
I was looking for answers to Bible contradictions when I found this board.
I have on a local board said "Bring on your Bible contradictions, lets roll heathen" in responce to a string of claims by a couple of non believers. I have no real fear that there are any real Bible contradictions but rather only Bible misunderstandings.
Will the death of my brother in law last week and one of my pcs down web time has been reduced. I don't have the extra time today to search each and every one on its own or read all eight pages here, so if you don't mind could I trouble you for some information so I may answer him quickly ? I assure you I will be back to read and post often, I really like what I've seen here this morning.
I feel certain these can be found in this thread, I will bbl to read the whole thing. If you could help me with these now I could not Thank You enough.
Thanks wally
Dr Gonzo Apr 21, 2003 2:42 AM
wally, is: "spare the rod spoil the child" in the bible?
um, *pharoah* is pretty vague for one. you'd think the name of the ruler under those circumstances would be remembered.
one of the gospels doesn't even mention the *virgin* birth (or was that *young girl*?)
history doesn't always agree with what the bible says was going on and scientific proof for evolution is pretty heavier than for a single set of humans appearing at some point in history.
checkout:
Under Construction webster.sk.ca
http://members.attcanada.ca/~fnojd/
the ones that make attempts to debunk claim to know exactly where the bible is being literal and where it is being figurative and using metaphor. perhaps they know something the rest of the world doesn't? or maybe they jsut see what they want to be seen?
there's some more detailed stuff about how history and the bible don't always jive too, more on that later.
David Apr 21, 2003 3:31 AM
wally
I Samuel 15: 2 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt."KJV
3"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."KJV
Deuteronomy 5:17 "Thou shalt not kill."KJV
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."KJV
I believe these verses make my point but I can provide more if needed. I am making several assumptions about your beliefs. For instance I didn't provide any scripture reference for Jesus Christ being God incarnate I simply assume that you already believe that.
I would really like to see your answer for the apparent contradiction. And please take note the LORD of Host didn't just require his people to kill enemy soldiers. They were required to kill babies still breast feeding as well.
Your Brother Apr 21, 2003 5:02 AM
*****Deuteronomy 5:17 "Thou shalt not kill."
This is not what it says in the manuscripts. Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary and look up the word as used here for "kill", # 7523. "ratsach, raw-tsakh'; a prime root; properly to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being, especially to murder: [this is not to kill a murderer but to murder]ut to death, manslay, murder (er)." This is why that Jesus said also in one of the Gospels translated it even more in detail.
Matthew 5:21 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:' "
"kill as uses in the Greek text here is # 5407 in Strong's Greek dictionary; "Phoneuo, from 5406, to be a murderer (of), kill, do murder, slay." Then in # 5406 we read; "Phoneus, fon-yoooce'; a murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homicide; which # 443 does not imply, while #4607 is a specific term for a public bandit):- murderer."
It is necessary that a soldier and those in combat take the life of another person, and this does not cover that type of taking of a life. It also does not apply to the taking of the life of an animal for the sake of sport or for food, but it directed only to the criminal act of homicide, the preplanned and calculated taking of a life of another human being. An accidental death is not an homicide, and that is why God instructed Moses to set up those cities of refuge, as we read in the last chapter. Thou shalt not commit the vicious act of premeditative murder.*****
{Murder is what it means. Not simply killing which is an act that shall be judged. Now on to your other verse.}
*****I Samuel 15:2 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, `Remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt."
Amalek was the son of Esau, and when the Israelites were wandering in the desert for those forty years, after being released from their captivity in Egypt, the Amalekites plotted and laid wait to destroy the Israelites. They were relatives of the Israelites, and they sought to take advantage of their own kin. God doesn't approve of relatives turning on their own kin.
I Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.' "
This is God's command to Saul, the king of Israel, for it is payback time to those who would plot against God's people. "Utterly destroy all that they have", and that command included not only the men, but the woman and children. Even "the infant and the suckling" child. The order by God was to destroy not only what they have, but all of them that are with them also.*****
{God was telling the Israelites to defend themselves by utterly destroying their enemies. Not unlike our recent involvement in Iraq. We went into Iraq to destroy the evil that may at any moment attempt to destroy us.
David, God is God and the judge of all mankind. For you to assume that this short time on earth we have, is not a gift of His, where we are placed here to have the chance to learn and earn His gift of everlasting life, then I doubt you will comprehend that it is His right to take these gifts away.
You have to believe or know that God created all, and God can take it all away from each of us just as easily. Death is a consequence of life, it is up to Him, when we will stand before him in judgement.
You would be wise to seek answers, but not to persecute others for having faith which you lack.
I hope this has helped answer your questions. Good luck to you David.}
Top20Burnout Apr 21, 2003 8:36 AM
**God was telling the Israelites to defend themselves by utterly destroying their enemies. Not unlike our recent involvement in Iraq. We went into Iraq to destroy the evil that may at any moment attempt to destroy us.**
Well, we aren't Israelites - not all of us, anyway. Are you saying the US war on Iraq was for Israel? Or are you saying this gives us the moral right to destroy people who haven't attacked us?
And how did we know that this "evil" was going to rise up at any moment and attempt to destroy us? Did God tell somebody?
And what's to stop some other "evil" from doing that in spite of (or because of) the war on Iraq?
And -- wait a minute -- I thought "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was for the purpose of liberating Iraqis!
And what else would you call the manufacture, delivery, and utilization of cluster bombs, if not premeditated murder?
Would you go to your neighbor's house and kill him because he has a gun, and might someday use it to kill you? If not, why not?
wally Apr 21, 2003 9:13 AM
is: "spare the rod spoil the child" in the bible? No.
I'll work on the rest later as I have time, Mondays are busy and I still have a pc down. Don't go anywhere "I'll be back".
------------------
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona-fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
-Edward Abbey

wally
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 221 (37442)
04-21-2003 11:32 AM


Did I memtion I was rushed this morn ?
I'm such a dork, I see there is a reply that when I glanced at the page that I thought was a list of would be contradictions. I didn't have time this morn to really get into this. BBL.

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by AdminPamboli, posted 04-21-2003 12:04 PM wally has not replied

AdminPamboli
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 221 (37444)
04-21-2003 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by wally
04-21-2003 11:32 AM


Re: Did I memtion I was rushed this morn ?
Welcome to the forum, wally.
I'm not at all sure what happened in your post, but when you return bear a couple of things in mind:
Firstly, it's not the done thing to just paste in large amounts of text from another site or discussion. In this case, it's quite confusing text, too.
Secondly, if you are in the middle of a discussion elsewhere with someone else, do feel free to invite them to participate here, rather than have them involved hjere "secondhand" through your contributions.
Anyway, when you return, see if you can tidy up your post a bit and raise the issues that you intended. Thanks, and again welcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by wally, posted 04-21-2003 11:32 AM wally has not replied

wally
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 221 (37480)
04-21-2003 7:30 PM


AdminPamboli Sorry for my long post this norning. I should have waited till I had more time to sort out just which questions I needed answers to. I was so rushed for time and so wound up. We carry on many discussions here on a local radio station board. You don't have to register so there seems to be an endless stream of nonbelievers that wanna mock God and in general "be cute".
It seem that the poster "Your Brother" (don't know who he is, first post with that name, as I said you don't have to register) posted to help answer the claims of Bible contradictions. I at the time of my post here had not had time to read the replies and thought there were a ton of Bible contradictions claimed that I just didn't have time to research. I was anxious. While looking for so quick answers I found this board. I had the big idea that I would ask you here about the Bible contradictions as I was sure you've heard them all.
Even though I was saved in 1974 it took years to know what to do with it. Only in the last three years have I really been on the right path with the desire I should have had years ago. I always knew in my heart that God would put me where he wanted me, now I know that I can't thank Him enough.
I won't invite any of the foul mouth nonbelievers over here yet. I want to read as much here as I can first so as to better know some of the people here. I'm looking forward to getting home from work tonight and reading this whole thread.
Again I'm sorry to have started off so wacked out, I will do better.
GBA
Thanks wally
------------------
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona-fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
-Edward Abbey

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Newborn, posted 07-15-2003 9:18 PM wally has not replied

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