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Author Topic:   do Christians want their values enforced on everyone by law?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 68 (361616)
11-04-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
11-04-2006 9:04 AM


Christians are in a pickle.
They want the kingdom to come - for all goodness comes with it.
Yet seeing as Gods laws being broken is an integral part of a person being convinced they are lawbreakers (which is instrumental in their salvation) all that upholds Gods law (such a no gay marriage) seems to work counter-salvation.
You could understand that we can be two-minded about such things. Not wanting people to be allowed freefall into sin. Yet realising that the depravity of sin is their only hope. Parents experience it: you have to let go but you don't want to let go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 11-04-2006 9:04 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 11-04-2006 8:37 PM iano has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 32 of 68 (361617)
11-04-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
Did you miss this in that link?
Yes, Buz, I missed that. I have a learning disability that prevents me from reading boldface.
How long the practice continued is irrelevent. It began where there were no churches. That's what the site says, and I have no reason to doubt that's true. Do you?
Are you trying to argue that going from church in Congress attended by supporters of the Constitution utilizing the government's military band is not "far more Christianity in government" than is allowed in government today?
I rather thought I was succeeding in arguing that very point.
First, as I mentioned in message 29, there's no mention of whether these were in fact "Christian" services. It says non-denominational, which could well mean religious in general, not simply Christian.
We now have a goverment employee opening each session of Congress with a prayer. I'd say that's more religion in government than Congress allowing the Capitol to be used for services where there are no government officials presiding over the service.
Consider also, there are many, many governmental facilities where religious services are held even today. If you think about it, I'm sure you will realize where they are.
We may be at an impasse. I'm not aware of any way to measure units of religiosity. You think your example is more involvement, I don't, given all the circumstances. By what measure do you propose we resolve this dispute?
In the alternative, since your original assertion was that there was "far more Christianty" in goverment in the past than there is now, perhaps you can find another example.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 6:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 6:56 PM subbie has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 68 (361620)
11-04-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
11-04-2006 6:04 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
Arach writes:
buzsaw is forbidden the privelege of enforcing his religion.
You people are posting some unreasonable strawmen and I'm not going to needlessly sit here and address it all.
I have shown where what is forbidden as mandated/imposed by law is much of what was allowed by law in the days of the framers of the Constitution. I'm not arguing for more or less. My point is the OP and thread title implication that Christians are imposing religion and that theocratic government is threatened upon the nation is false in that Christians perse do not impose laws. We, like secularists, gays, et al all work to elect lawmakers who make the laws most desireable to us.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 11-04-2006 6:04 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by arachnophilia, posted 11-04-2006 9:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 68 (361623)
11-04-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by subbie
11-04-2006 6:35 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
subbie writes:
In the alternative, since your original assertion was that there was "far more Christianty" in goverment in the past than there is now, perhaps you can find another example.
Hey, my friend, there's much more out there. If you can't accept this significant example, nothing more will help you. Do a google on the subject if you want more. I'm not into another thread at this time. One thread at a time is about all I have time for in active participation.
Btw, the link you got your info from was not emboldened so if you missed the info in it it was because you only wanted to read what suited your argument.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by subbie, posted 11-04-2006 6:35 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by subbie, posted 11-04-2006 7:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 68 (361624)
11-04-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
Thank GOD!

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 36 of 68 (361631)
11-04-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 6:56 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
I did more than just not accept your single example. I gave substantive reasons why I didn't find it significant. I'd have more sympathy for your reluctance to continue if all I'd said was, "Nuh-uh!" If you'd care to explain why my reasons aren't persuasive, please do so. In any event, I'm certainly not about to go looking for examples for you to support your proposition.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 6:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 68 (361647)
11-04-2006 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
11-04-2006 12:15 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
But your reply doesn't answer the question.
Why do Christian conservatives vote to support the death penalty, or vote to cut funding to programs to help the poor, or vote to go to war on a country that has never threatened or injured us, or vote to support business greed and wealth?
Why do they do that when it is so clearly counter to what even Faith has agreed are good Christian values?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-04-2006 12:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-05-2006 1:45 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 68 (361649)
11-04-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
11-04-2006 1:12 PM


OK, how about if I said that Jesus held values in common with what we would call "social Liberals" today?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 11-04-2006 1:12 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by mike the wiz, posted 11-05-2006 5:33 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 68 (361651)
11-04-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:03 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
quote:
1. The issues you cite are issues at large and not limited to Christians. For example gay marriage may be banned in some totalitarian anit-Christian nations and are banned as I understand.
True, but in the US, it's the Christian Conservatives who are behind the interference, for no valid secular reason.
Most people in the US support it, just as most people in the US support a woman's right to an abortion.
quote:
2. All governments impose laws. In a democratic republic such as ours the people choose who gets into government position to impose laws. So when the electorate votes, regardless of ideology, the electorate at large decides who will impose laws. Gays likely will support their agendas and evangelicals theirs. Ultimately Christians perse impose no laws. Elected officials do that. We all work in the system to advance our ideological agendas.
Except that you are forgetting the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
quote:
3. The majority way back in Jefferson's day in fact voted for this president who had church services in the halls of congress and decided that the marine band would be nice for the music in those services. Magin that. Nowadays the majority wouldn't think of such a thing.
Right. I don't get your point.
quote:
4. So madear, do the American thing that's been done for 200+ years. Get out, root for and vote for folks who impose laws you want imposed and who refrain from imposing others. I and my Biblicalist fellow citizens will do the same.
Oh, don't worry about that.
But again, your laws have to abide by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 68 (361652)
11-04-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 4:10 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
quote:
When then does the alleged theocracy get the Bible back in government schools as it was for over a century before the secularists took over?
Do you want the state religion of the US to be Christianity, buz?
Do you want a Theocracy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 4:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by MangyTiger, posted 11-04-2006 8:44 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 41 of 68 (361655)
11-04-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
quote:
It's unfortunate for us who's priviledges are forbidden by imposition of the majority electorate.
So, you people think you ever had the right to indoctrinate all American schoolchildren into your religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 68 (361657)
11-04-2006 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 5:33 PM


Re: Christians Impose No Laws
Buz.
Read the Jefferson quote in my sig file.

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 5:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 68 (361658)
11-04-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
11-04-2006 6:34 PM


quote:
Christians are in a pickle.
They want the kingdom to come - for all goodness comes with it.
Yet seeing as Gods laws being broken is an integral part of a person being convinced they are lawbreakers (which is instrumental in their salvation) all that upholds Gods law (such a no gay marriage) seems to work counter-salvation.
You could understand that we can be two-minded about such things. Not wanting people to be allowed freefall into sin. Yet realising that the depravity of sin is their only hope. Parents experience it: you have to let go but you don't want to let go.
But this doesn't address my question.
I wanted to know why it was that Christians are all gung-ho to get some of their religious views imposed upon everyone else by force of law, but not others.
Why don't they try to enforce Jesus' attitude towards the greed and wealth of businesses, or his admonition to take care of the poor, or his lessons regarding how we should treat our enemies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 11-04-2006 6:34 PM iano has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 44 of 68 (361659)
11-04-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nator
11-04-2006 8:22 PM


Christianity can't be a state religion - you have to pick a sect
Do you want the state religion of the US to be Christianity, buz?
Ah but as those of us from a country with an established Church can tell you from bitter experience you can't have Christianity as a state religion.
You have to pick which version of Christianity you want. We slaughtered many thousands over a few centuries (not to mention installing or toppling a variety of monarchs) over whether we would be Roman Catholic or Protestant. Actually not just Protestant but Church of England (Anglican or Episcopal as I believe it is known in the rest of the World).
If you were to get a Christian theocracy in the US in the short to medium term I imagine it would be a united front of Evangelicals but shortly afterwards you would see internecine warfare of the sort not seen since religion was totally dominant in Europe.
If on the other hand it were to happen in the (much) longer term then I suspect demographics mean it will be the Roman Catholic Church.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 68 (361683)
11-04-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
11-04-2006 6:46 PM


Re: Theocracy :vs: Democracy
You people are posting some unreasonable strawmen and I'm not going to needlessly sit here and address it all.
clearly, since you aren't addressing this point to a real argument, those must not be strawmen. my point, which you ignored, is that christian literature is indeed taught in schools, and prayer groups are in fact allowed. since this is simply a point of fact, clearly what you are being forbidden is more than simply allowing christians to function as any other group within the public school system. if this is all you are clamoring for, then you are simply under a false impression, and in the process giving everyone else here a false impression of what you're asking for.
My point is the OP and thread title implication that Christians are imposing religion and that theocratic government is threatened upon the nation is false in that Christians perse do not impose laws.
i agree, our lawmakers are not good examples of christians. however, they do claim to be christians (all of them, btw, or pretty close to all of them), and the current party in power in all three branches of government strongly plays to (and manipulates) white, christian america. these are christians making laws for christian voters.
We, like secularists, gays, et al all work to elect lawmakers who make the laws most desireable to us.
"secularists" is not an organized group. neither is "gays." and secularism does not impose itself on religion; it is saying that the government should not be a religious organization. this allows every religion to operate as it so wishes. neutrality is the opposite of bias, buz. it's not just another bias. having a secular government is not the same as having a government that outlaws religions. but legislating any one religion is like confining all the others by law.
and what you are essentially arguing for here, by bringing up "secularists," is that religion should be in government. that is the natural implication of your sentiment. by saying that you are not a member of the group defined by the belief in separation of church and state, you are saying that you do not believe church and state should be separated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 6:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2006 11:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
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