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Author Topic:   The Universal Moral Law & Devolution since the Fall
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 189 (352112)
09-25-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Equinox
09-25-2006 12:57 PM


Re: Testable Hypotheses
OK, someone hasn't looked much at other religions. I've heard the "only in Christianity does God seek man, not vice-versa", from Christians before, and it always shows an ignorance of other religions. Islam is clearly about God seeking man, both by including the history leading up to Abraham and by having God seek out Mohammad to dictate the Qu'ran.
If you READ the Koran AND the Bible you will see this MAJOR difference, IF you are honest, that the Bible records the actual seekings of {edit: man by} God, and all the Koran does is pile up precepts and instructions implying they are from God. There is no prophecy in the Koran, there is nothing but Mohammed's writings about how to behave as a good Muslim. The Bible records historical events in which God chose particular men to do particular tasks, and reports the actual words of God Himself. The Koran's co-opting (and rewriting) portions of the Bible to subsume it under Islam is laughable "evidence" in favor of Islam. There is no comparison and the ignorance is yours.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Equinox, posted 09-25-2006 12:57 PM Equinox has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 182 of 189 (352115)
09-25-2006 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Equinox
09-25-2006 12:57 PM


Why didn't God... appoint Equinox to run things?
Why did God choose only the Jews? Again Christians make out their God to be too small.
We don't "make out our God" at all, we believe what HE has told us. He SAID He chose the Jews JUST BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. He's God isn't He? A people to carry His word and to be the source of His Messiah. Could have been any people. Could have been any man but Abraham. But He chooses whom He chooses. He's God.
Why not inspire the message in several or all cultures?
Well, gee, if you were God you could do it your way. I probably wouldn't have done it God's way either. I'm not smart enough. He did it His way and that's that.
Why not write it in the stars or in the crystallographic lattices of rocks,the leaves of trees and the formations that form when water freezes,
Um He did. But I haven't noticed anybody getting the message, have you? Anybody you know reading the trees and crystals and recognizing that God sent a Savior to save us from our sins? That's the message you know. If God is going to give it in one place He's going to give it in all other places. Same message. If you can't see it in the crystals that has to be your fault not His.
in addition to "inspiring" a single tribe of a bronze-age people with a contradictory and convoluted text, written in malleable words on fragile paper? ]
Words are clearer than rock crystals and leaves when you want to convey a message like the salvation of sinners, wouldn't you guess?
Why then stop all inspiration and expect people 2000 years later to get the right message?
Um, God is God. Got that? I'm not God, I don't know why He did things as He did, I just know He did, and criticizing Him for it seems a tad, well, foolish at least.
And that's supposed to be God seeking man? Even Islam has more recent divine scripture than that.
All the other messages contradict the Bible. Two opposed messages can't both be true. Elementary logic. If you like Islam then go with Islam but don't deceive yourself that it is the same God talking.
DRAT, I THINK THIS IS OFF TOPIC. SORRY I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Equinox, posted 09-25-2006 12:57 PM Equinox has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Equinox, posted 09-26-2006 1:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 189 (352119)
09-25-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ReverendDG
09-23-2006 5:03 AM


Re: Testable Hypotheses
it should matter a lot, how in the world do you convince people if its true or not?
I meant it doesn't matter if you get it or not with respect to its objective veracity. Please read in context.
As for convincing people of its truth I do what I can but that's God's job ultimately.
how can you tell non-believers it is true, if it doesn't show it?
It does show it. That was my point. Your not getting it doesn't change that fact. Just means you're wrong. It can happen believe it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ReverendDG, posted 09-23-2006 5:03 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ReverendDG, posted 09-25-2006 11:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 189 (352121)
09-25-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by ReverendDG
09-23-2006 5:09 AM


its odd that a person who tries so hard to convince people, says that it doesn't matter if we do or do not think its true.
Sigh. OK I'll say it again. It doesn't matter because it is true whether you believe it or not. Your not believing it doesn't change its being true. You are the loser in that case. That's sad but it doesn't affect the Bible's veracity. For YOU it matters certainly. If you go on not believing it you're in trouble. But that's between you and God. I've done my part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ReverendDG, posted 09-23-2006 5:09 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NosyNed, posted 09-25-2006 9:55 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 187 by ReverendDG, posted 09-25-2006 11:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 185 of 189 (352267)
09-25-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
09-25-2006 2:16 PM


Your part sure 'nuff
I've done my part.
Yes, you sure have. You've given still more examples that will force anyone with a brain away from your religion. You've shown how impervious a mind can be to the facts of the world around them.
You offer a great deal of ammo for those who would make mockery of Christianity. Is it any wonder that the majority of Christians consider you a worse threat than any atheist does?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 09-25-2006 2:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 186 of 189 (352275)
09-25-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
09-25-2006 2:13 PM


Re: Testable Hypotheses
I meant it doesn't matter if you get it or not with respect to its objective veracity. Please read in context.
what objective veracity? what context, you keep saying this like its true, but you have yet to show it. why bother answering me if you don't even care, why post to evc if it doesn't matter what people think?
its obvious you do or you wouldn't keep repeating yourself expecting people to bow down to your book and say "your right, we are wrong!"
It does show it. That was my point. Your not getting it doesn't change that fact. Just means you're wrong. It can happen believe it or not.
where does it show it? all i see is a bunch of stories just like in all the books on greek belief, celtic belief, and norse belief, its no different than them. logically if i have to ask this it must not then.
your snide unnessisary comment asside, i'm asking a real honest question, the fact that you are the one not really understanding me, i'm asking what makes your book obvious its right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 09-25-2006 2:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 187 of 189 (352276)
09-25-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
09-25-2006 2:16 PM


Sigh. OK I'll say it again. It doesn't matter because it is true whether you believe it or not. Your not believing it doesn't change its being true. You are the loser in that case. That's sad but it doesn't affect the Bible's veracity. For YOU it matters certainly. If you go on not believing it you're in trouble. But that's between you and God. I've done my part.
you see this is why people question and don't want a part of christianity. why is it true? because you believe it is? true things are true no matter what, which means i could in my unbelief in your god see the truth without being a christian, if its factually uniqivicually true its true without belief.
but the bible is not.
god is true, but god doesn't need the bible to be true
how does it matter to me? i don't believe the bible, the bible is irrelevent, all that should matter should be what god thinks.
if i am in trouble, this shows only that a bunch of men thought this was what god wants. i believe in god as the shaper of the universe, i just don't see your commity based book as a guide to god.
i see it as a book for learning about how people think about god, but its not much of a guide to god
I've done my part.
what part you do nothing but claim you are right and everyone else is wrong, you add nothing to this, other than the hollow mouthing of a fundie
reading the things i quoted, reminds me of when jesus attacked the pharisees, i think Yec fundimentalism is the new pharisees
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 09-25-2006 2:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 188 of 189 (352301)
09-26-2006 5:05 AM


All I was doing was clarifying what I meant since nobody got it. Now you are all jumping on me? For what?

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5141 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 189 of 189 (352406)
09-26-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
09-25-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Why didn't God... appoint Equinox to run things?
Faith wrote:
quote:
He SAID He chose the Jews JUST BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. He's God isn't He? A people to carry His word and to be the source of His Messiah. Could have been any people. ... But He chooses whom He chooses. He's God.
OK, so if his plan was to bring everyone to Jesus, he’s obviously done a very poor job, and anyone could have predicted that ahead of time, even without Godly prescience.
For instance, if I were a marketing manager, and a candidate said “I’m going to tell the world a message, and I’m going to do it by inspiring a few people in one culture at one time with separate parts of the message, then I’m going to sit around and do nothing for 1,850 years”. Any manager would know such a “plan” is a recipe for failure. If I were to hire such a candidate, I may get fired for it.
Today, even after 1,850 years, a majority of the world’s population either hasn’t heard or has rejected the message. That’s hardly stellar performance, especially for a God that is literally omnipotent, and is supposed to have the power to do literally anything instantly, and is supposed to know ahead of time what will work and what won’t.
From all that, doesn’t it seem that God intentionally wanted to create the majority of people as toys for him to torture for all eternity? That’s what Rom 9 says. And that’s a just and moral God? Really, did I misread the Bible? (do you agree that this situation is God’s plan)?
quote:
quote:
Why not write it in the stars or in the crystallographic lattices of rocks,the leaves of trees and the formations that form when water freezes,
Um He did.
No, he didn’t. He knew the target audience better than we know ourselves, and he failed to make a message that was readable by the target audience. He could have made the universe so that the message appeared on leaves, rocks, and everything else, in the language of the viewer (even when viewed by simultaneously by different people), and have it be obvious without “interpretation”. He could have made the message dance and be different colors to add flair. After all, He’s supposed to be all powerful. How do I know he hasn’t done what he’s obviously capable of and says he wants? Because of this:
Faith wrote:
quote:
But I haven't noticed anybody getting the message, have you? Anybody you know reading the trees and crystals and recognizing that God sent a Savior to save us from our sins? That's the message you know.
***********************************************************
quote:
quote:
in addition to "inspiring" a single tribe of a bronze-age people with a contradictory and convoluted text, written in malleable words on fragile paper?
Words are clearer than rock crystals and leaves when you want to convey a message like the salvation of sinners, wouldn't you guess?
No, I wouldn’t guess that for an omnipotent God. As I pointed out above, there are a ton of ways obvious even to my uncreative and limited mind to make a clear message on everything. This seems again to be an instance of a Christian describing a puny, narrow-minded God limited by the laws of science who can’t come up with ways to communicate a message beyond bronze age technology.
Communicating the encyclopedia Britannica in an object smaller than a stapler should be easy. Hell, my 256 MB flashdrive can do that, and I expect any God worth his salt should be better than a thumbdrive.
quote:
Um, God is God. Got that? I'm not God, I don't know why He did things as He did, I just know He did, and criticizing Him for it seems a tad, well, foolish at least.
That sounds like the logic of “Might makes Right”. I could have said to a Kurd in 1991:
quote:
Um, Saddam is Saddam. Got that? I'm not Saddam, I don't know why He did things as He did, I just know He did, and criticizing Him for it seems a tad, well, foolish at least.
My moral compass is not dependant on who’s regime I’m living in. I hope we can all agree that “might makes right” is not a basis for morality. If something is illogical or unjust, I’m going to say so - it’s the only thing a person with integrity can do, even if it gets them in hot water.
It seems to me that:
If God is just, then he won’t penalize people for using the minds he gave them.
If God is unjust, then anyone with integrity won’t worship or obey him.
Either way, thinking and speaking without fear is the result.
Honestly, do we see things differently here?
Faith wrote:
quote:
All the other messages contradict the Bible. Two opposed messages can't both be true. Elementary logic. If you like Islam then go with Islam ...
I agree that they do contradict the Bible. I also agree that two opposed messages can’t both be true, though both can be false. Islam doesn’t appear correct to me. I bet we can agree on that point if no others. Just because I’m not convinced by the Bible doesn’t mean that I have to be convinced by the Qu’ran.
quote:
He's God isn't He?
Maybe, maybe not. Most of the people in the world don’t think so. In all of history, there has never been a time when most of the people in the world thought so (that the Christian God is the one true god).
Without knowing which God is real, if any, then we have to rely on our internal moral compass, which doesn’t appear to favor one god over the other. I suspect that most people see Anne Frank, Mother Theresa, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King as good people. I know I do. They are, respectively, a Jew, a Catholic, a Hindu, and a Protestant. Any one of their religions condemns the other three. Four contradictory messages can’t all be right, but they could all be wrong. Even if all those religions are wrong, the members of the religions can still be good people, who don’t deserve to be tortured.
I don't mean to jump all over you, as you mentioned, but rather to point out some logical results of the ideas proposed.
Take care-
Edited by Equinox, : / on quote

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 09-25-2006 2:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
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