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Author Topic:   Mimicry and neodarwinism
Belfry
Member (Idle past 5200 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 91 of 188 (348199)
09-11-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MartinV
09-11-2006 4:53 PM


MartinV writes:
Mushroom are really interesting, totally overlooked by darwinists.
They did not exist for them.
I was so interested in your statements about bees that I didn't even see this until I read WK's response.
Please, please start a new thread about how mushrooms don't exist for evolutionary biology!
Or, you save yourself the embarrassment and actually look it up. Try doing a search at scholar.google.com for "fungus evolution."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by MartinV, posted 09-11-2006 4:53 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:40 AM Belfry has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 92 of 188 (348254)
09-11-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Wounded King
09-11-2006 6:47 PM


clue?
You really just say whatever comes into your head don't you?
...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Wounded King, posted 09-11-2006 6:47 PM Wounded King has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 93 of 188 (348255)
09-11-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by deerbreh
09-10-2006 10:49 PM


mimicry and avoiding the argument
You scold Jar for bringing up mimicry in vertebrates and now you want to talk mushrooms? Not all bright colors/patterns are examples of warning coloration. Propose a new topic if you wish to discuss it
heh, I noticed that too. It's mimicry in action ...
It's called restricting other information that invalidates the hypothesis on the pretense that it doens't focus on the issue, but then when more information starts to show the hypothesis really is invalid then introduce lots of new information to try to obscure the points being made.
Ignoring all counter arguments is like that too (ie pepper moths show actual natural selection based on preferential predation due to differences in visibility of moth versus background).
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 94 of 188 (348263)
09-11-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by MartinV
09-11-2006 1:47 PM


Yet I suppose that same predators should be present in same area to enable darwinian fancy to present its explanations as science. But do darwinian have enough fantasy to explain even origin of mimetism described by Poulton, when mimics and his model lived in different and distatnt areas?
For instance Limenitis albomaculata lives in West China and their model - males Hypolimnas misippus - southeast Asia?
Strona gwna | Uniwersytet im. Adama Mickiewicza w Poznaniu
Accueil | INRAE INSTIT
If you had bothered to read your own link concerning Hypolimnas misippus, you would have read the following:
"This species comes from the Old World, where females are mimics of the African Monarch, Danaus chrysippus (Linnaeus). It may have been introduced via the slave trade, H. misippus is probably not a permanent resident in all islands where it has been observed."
You would also have found that it is present in "Guadeloupe and Martinique. Marie-Galante, les Saintes (Pinchon & Enrico). Antigua, Dominica, St-Lucia, Barbados, St-Vincent. Throughout the Greater Antilles, but rare. Guyanas, Venezuela, Florida. Tropical zones of the Old World."
But not a damn word about it being found in southeast Asia.
So your own link shows:
(1) It is not found where you say it's found.
(2) It is not the subject of mimicry, but a mimic.
(3) The butterfly it mimics is not L. albomaculata
(4) The butterfly it mimics is indeed found in its region of origin.
How wrong can you get? Do creationists have some sort of competition over who can manage the most misinformation per sentence, or what?
And why were you so wrong? I will do you the courtesy of supposing that you didn't just read your link and then decide to tell bare-faced lies about it ... so where did all this rubbish come from?
Supplementary question: why can't you guys base your arguments on facts? (Hint: 'cos you're wrong.)
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by MartinV, posted 09-11-2006 1:47 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 98 by Muhd, posted 09-12-2006 1:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 103 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Muhd
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 188 (348279)
09-12-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
09-08-2006 10:03 AM


Wow. My own personal editor. I'm flattered.

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Muhd
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 188 (348281)
09-12-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
09-08-2006 6:06 AM


Read:
Darwinism does not account for the evidence, therefore it is not convincing.
If Darwinism is not convincing, we shouldn't believe it (that's what Catholic Scientist said)
Since Darwinsim is not convincing, we shouldn't believe it

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Muhd
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 188 (348282)
09-12-2006 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2006 10:46 PM


quote:
How wrong can you get? Do creationists have some sort of competition over who can manage the most misinformation per sentence, or what?
Curses! We've been found out! Every Creationist for himself!
Actually we're just here to talk some sense into you.
Edited by Muhd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Muhd
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 188 (348285)
09-12-2006 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2006 10:46 PM


quote:
Supplementary question: why can't you guys base your arguments on facts? (Hint: 'cos you're wrong.)
Well I don't know much about the subject of this thread so I would have to make that argument elsewhere.
Edited by Muhd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9007
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 99 of 188 (348290)
09-12-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Muhd
09-12-2006 1:09 AM


Errors were pointed out.
This isn't much of an answer for very specific errors that were pointed out to you.
Are you agreeing with them or not?

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 100 of 188 (348363)
09-12-2006 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Belfry
09-11-2006 6:32 PM


Belfry writes:
I'd love to see these cryptic honeybees you're talking about!
According wikipedia there are 20,000 species of bees.
I have no doubt, that there are some of them, that looks like
aposematics. But the question remains - is there realy different selective pressure on them, that some of them are cryptic and some of them aposematic?
These honeybees do seem anything but aposematic:
File:Honeybee thermal defence01.jpg - Wikipedia
Maybe we should use traditional method of some darwinists and glue dead specimens on different tree trunks, take picture of them and so corroborate respective arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Belfry, posted 09-11-2006 6:32 PM Belfry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Belfry, posted 09-12-2006 5:41 PM MartinV has replied

MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 101 of 188 (348364)
09-12-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Wounded King
09-11-2006 6:47 PM


WoundedKing writes:
You really just say whatever comes into your head don't you? Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? All of your arguments from incredulity have had the ssame whiny complaint that neo-Darwinist's ignore this absolute nail in their coffin, and this seems to invariably turn out to be untrue, suggesting that you might be better employed looking into more recent literature to see what neo-Darwinist's actually do say.
Maybe you can interpret what neo-Darwinist actually do say and where I was "invariably" wrong.
Many of baffling mimicry desribed by Poulton, Heikertinger etc... are not to be found on Internet, so I restrict myself to send only those you can see on pictures at least. There is no interest to study them in Amazonia etc. any more as was the case untill WW2. It is better indulge in darwinian omnipotent all-explaining fancy of mimicry while sitting in armchair.
Yet it is a fact, that many scientists had very different explanation of mimicry as darwinist at that time- Punnett, Heikertinger, Eimer, Portmann...
I would like add, that my arguments have to do more with sober senses than with "whiny complaint ".

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 102 of 188 (348365)
09-12-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Belfry
09-11-2006 7:21 PM


Belfry writes:
Or, you save yourself the embarrassment and actually look it up. Try doing a search at scholar.google.com for "fungus evolution."
There are 11 results for "fungus evolution" at scholar.google. Which one of them would you reccomend me? Which one of them give comprehensive neodarwinian account for astonishing shape/colour diversity of mushroom sporocarps?
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 103 of 188 (348367)
09-12-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2006 10:46 PM


Dr Adequate about Hypolimnas misippus writes:
...Venezuela, Florida. Tropical zones of the Old World"
But not a damn word about it being found in southeast Asia.
So your own link shows:
(1) It is not found where you say it's found.
(2) It is not the subject of mimicry, but a mimic.
(3) The butterfly it mimics is not L. albomaculata
(4) The butterfly it mimics is indeed found in its region of origin.
How wrong can you get? Do creationists have some sort of competition over who can manage the most misinformation per sentence, or what?
And why were you so wrong?
If you spend more time on internet, you could spare us reading of this totaly incompetent response. You could find that Hypolimnas misippus lives in south-east Asia as well as I wrote:
The species occurs around the whole equatorial belt: Africa, south-east Asia, the northern half of Australia, the Pacific Islands, North and South America, and the West Indies, including :
Error (404) - The University of Sydney
If you had read more carefully my post, you could noticed, that this case of mimetism was described by Poulton. Poulton was prominent scientist who spent his time outside in nature and I dare say that no armchair google "scientist" can proved him as liar.
Maybe Poulton wrote predominantly about south-east Asia H.m., because as convinced darwinist he wanted to explain, how is it possible, that Limenitis albomaculata mimics mentioned Hypolimnas misippus (and not opposite as is the claim in totaly incompetent and speculative response in point 3). And south-east Asia is not as far from west China as America is.
What I was waiting for was some darwinian fairy-tail about migrating birds with archetypical idea of Hypolimnas misippus to which Limetis alb. accomodated or something like that. And not this incompenetent illogical response.
---
remark: Btw. do you know, that "Old World" incorporate Asia too? Yet I do not see even if I was wrong a point. If H.m. does not live in south-east Asia is it better for a darwinist to explain mimicry when model and its mimic live far more distantly as previously assumed?
Or even maybe there is only "superficial resemblance" between these species? Something, that Poulton missed, but armchair google researcher noticed immediately?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2006 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-15-2006 10:08 PM MartinV has not replied

Belfry
Member (Idle past 5200 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 104 of 188 (348486)
09-12-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by MartinV
09-12-2006 11:36 AM


cryptic honeybees
MartinV writes:
According wikipedia there are 20,000 species of bees.
Yes, but you said "honeybees."
MartinV writes:
I have no doubt, that there are some of them, that looks like
aposematics. But the question remains - is there realy different selective pressure on them, that some of them are cryptic and some of them aposematic?
Of course, every population of any type of organism will both experience both a different selective environment and have a different history of mutations for selection to act upon. Where's the big mystery?
MartinV writes:
These honeybees do seem anything but aposematic:
File:Honeybee thermal defence01.jpg - Wikipedia
I disagree; that picture does not show off the aposematism very well, but it's still there. The fact that you found a picture of them in a relatively low-light situation against a brown background does not negate the fact that they have the yellow-and-black striped abdomen that is instantly recognizable by anyone.
And in any case, particularly by the standards you're using to evaluate honeybees, I could give many examples of wasps that are not aposematic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by MartinV, posted 09-12-2006 11:36 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 108 by MartinV, posted 09-13-2006 11:29 AM Belfry has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9007
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 105 of 188 (348487)
09-12-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Belfry
09-12-2006 5:41 PM


cute typo
are engulfed and beeing heated.
I find the typo in the wiki article a bit amusing.

This message is a reply to:
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