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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 307 (344476)
08-28-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
08-28-2006 9:27 PM


Better here than philadelphia
Christ loved us enough that he died for us.
Yeah, some Christians believe that. It never made much sense to me though. I believe that he lived for us.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:52 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 307 (344485)
08-28-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by GDR
08-28-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Well, it may be slightly more than "just reading". He was asked what was most important wasn't he?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 10:07 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 307 (344645)
08-29-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
08-29-2006 1:15 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Christ's life and teaching went beyond that. Christ's life gave us the example of living for others. It wasn't just a matter of balancing off his own needs with his ministry, but it was about a life of total service.
I don't quite see that or that his message is of total service. His message was about living life. He partied, threw fishfries, went to weddings, laughed and cried with his friends, played jokes on them and chided them at times.
Jesus did not make EVERY lame person walk, or all the blind to see or raise all the dead or cure every leper he passed. He lived life. He did not seek out the sick, the lame, the blind, the leper. He didn't open a clinic or hospital, nor a soup kitchen or church. He lived life. When an opportunity came along he took it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 1:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 10:12 AM jar has not replied
 Message 60 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 10:47 AM jar has not replied
 Message 61 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 10:58 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 307 (344698)
08-29-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 10:58 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Isn't there something in the story about Jesus' asking that a certain cup be taken from him and then a subsequent death by torture? I'm almost sure I read that somewhere.
Sure. Pretty human reaction. Most folk don't want to die. As to his death, dying is a function of being born. Crucifixion also wasn't all that unusual, in fact there were at least two others crucified the very same day, time and place while it is likely that dozens or even hundreds of folk were crucified that day throughout the Roman Empire.
The message of Jesus is NOT his death, it is his life and the wondrous things he taught us during it. It is his resurrection and ascension after death. It is the empty cross.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 10:58 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 307 (344710)
08-29-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by CK
08-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
There are several examples in the Bible. One of my favorites is the tale of Peter walking on water. Jesus convinces him to come out and stroll the waves, but when Peters suspension of reason fails him, he starts to sink. Jesus laughs and in a friendly manner chides him, but helps him back to the boat.
Another classic is Doubting Thomas. Tommy says "Yeah? You say you are Jesus so prove it?" Jesus kinda laughs and says "Sure Tommy. Come here. Stick your hands in the holes. Doubt I could do much water walking with these feet, eh?"
Even Jesus first miracle is an example of His sense of humor. Jesus makes the miraculaous beer run but does he spoil the fun by explaining it? Nope. He just sits back and lets the good times roll.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by CK, posted 08-29-2006 11:10 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 11:58 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 307 (344726)
08-29-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
It says in the Bible that he laughs?
Nope, not in the Peter story. But reading it I can't imagine it without the chuckle. Mayhaps some can but I sure can't.
24But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
If you want to see the store as morose, then fine. You are welcome to view it that way.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 11:58 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by kuresu, posted 08-29-2006 1:56 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 307 (344768)
08-29-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by kuresu
08-29-2006 1:56 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Well Jesus seems like a fun guy to be around. I mean come on, He knew Peter would fail, scared the shit out of him, but He also was there to help. Peter was safe even if Peter didn't know it.
But that is not to say that Christianity as I see it is easy. I don't see all the copouts, benefits and "get out of hell free cards" that many Christians seem to think exist. You don't get to blame problems on some Fall, or claim the "devil made you do it" or know that you are saved just cause you "believe". You also have to try to live the life.
But GOD knows we are humans just as Jesus knew that Peter would fail, or Thomas would doubt or that folk would worry if there was enough Low Country Boil to feed all the guests. Jesus didn't punish Peter for failing to walk on water, He was probably pleased and surprised Peter got as far as he did. He held Peter up, led him back to the boat and calmed the winds.
GOD is like that. Like a parent watching a child when the training wheels first come off, GOD knows we will likely fail, and GOD will be there to help us up when we fall over, get us back on the bike and watch us try again. One day we might even get the hang of it and that taste of freedom when you take your first ride and the wind is blowing in your face and your hair is flying and you are out of sight of the house and you can go anywhere, is something you will always cherish. And whether you know it or not, a parent is watching through the curtains, maybe even a tear of joy in the old mans eye.
The otherside of Christianity as I see it is that just like learning to ride the bike, YOU have to do it. There are NO training wheels like the Fall or Satan or Knowledge that YOU are Saved to hold you up.
GOD sent us the message that we all start out saved. Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist, or Anamist, all start even. When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?
You won't be able to say that "The world is filled with sin" or "We are all Fallen" or "The Sins of Adam" or even "I'm a Christian". None of those will carry any weight. The judgement will be on what you did and what you might have done, and the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by kuresu, posted 08-29-2006 1:56 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 3:57 PM jar has replied
 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 4:49 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 307 (344776)
08-29-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by GDR
08-29-2006 3:57 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I would agree that there is absolute right and absolute wrong.
I wouldn't. I don't think there is any such thing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 3:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 4:24 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 307 (344792)
08-29-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by GDR
08-29-2006 4:24 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Well if God doesn't decide what is right and wrong then who does?
I think GOD does judge what is right and wrong, just that there is no absolute. GOD will judge the individual individually. He knows that we will always be working with incomplete information, making snap judgements, and that we will often get it wrong or wish on later though we had done differently. He will know all of that.
GOD will judge us on what we did and what our own unique capabilities were. But he will judge you against YOU and me against ME.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 4:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:14 PM jar has replied
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 5:33 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 307 (344796)
08-29-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 4:49 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
How does Jesus Christ fit into your version of Christianity? What's his function?
Teacher while here on earth. Judge later.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 4:49 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 08-29-2006 5:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 307 (344806)
08-29-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
08-29-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I think that is important and also to understand that while He was here on earth He really was human. He had no powers that every other human doesn't have. The difference was that he showed us by example what a human really can be, what really is possible.
I see everything as GOD teaching us a lesson. Here is HUMAN. Here is LOVING. Here is ANGER. Here is TRUST. Here is VISION. Here is FAITH. Here is LIFE.
Now that you good folk see what can be done, try to do it. It's likely you will fail, but if you do, get up, dust yourself off and try again.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 08-29-2006 5:07 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:24 PM jar has replied
 Message 98 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 5:40 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 307 (344811)
08-29-2006 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 5:14 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
This makes no sense unless you are claiming that God is just giving his subjective opinion and that He might very well be wrong.
And therein lies the difference. She will not be wrong.
I went on to explain it in the parts you neglected to include.
jar writes:
I think GOD does judge what is right and wrong, just that there is no absolute. GOD will judge the individual individually. He knows that we will always be working with incomplete information, making snap judgements, and that we will often get it wrong or wish on later though[t] we had done differently. He will know all of that.
GOD will judge us on what we did and what our own unique capabilities were. But he will judge you against YOU and me against ME.
You will be judged by a different standard than I will or Ringo will or Faith will. You will be judged against ROBIN, what Robin might have been.
There is no absolute standard.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:14 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:31 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 307 (344815)
08-29-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 5:24 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
So the authors of the New Testament were wrong from the beginning (about the "He-died-for-our-sins" concept)?
Yes and no.
I never got the "he died for our sins" message from reading the Bible. GOD forgives sin. GOD has no need to come down and kill himself to pay himself for our sins. It is simply a silly idea.
What I get from the Bible is that GOD is forgiving. No one starts off damned. Every one of us though will be judged and judged based on what we do during this life, and what we could have done. We are expected to try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:36 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 307 (344817)
08-29-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 5:36 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I thought they mentioned that in the Bible a lot--that He died for our sins.
No, not that much. And even if they did, it is simply silly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 08-29-2006 5:50 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 307 (344825)
08-29-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by GDR
08-29-2006 5:40 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Why the cross at all then? Sure He was a great teacher. We've had many great teachers including the OT prophets. What makes Jesus more than a prophet? (Or is He?)
Well the cross and even the crucifixion isn't that unusual. Remember, as I pointed out before, there were atleast two others crucified the same day, time and place as Jesus and likely hundreds or thousands that same day throughout the Roman Empire.
This is one of the funnier aspects of modern Christianity IMHO. In the Protestant realm, the symbol is the empty cross, placing the empahsis on the life before His crucifixion and the fact that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. The cross is but a moment, a breakpoint between the two lessons to be learned. In the Roman Catholic tradition on the other hand you see the Crucifix, the Man Hanging. There you see more symbology on the actual death, then on before and after. Different views.
What I find funny though are the Fundamentalist and Evangelical preachers standing beneath the symbol of the Empty Cross chattering on about the crucifixion as the central point of Jesus life yet totally missing the message displayed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 5:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-29-2006 6:22 PM jar has replied

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