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Author Topic:   Religious Right and Evangelicals
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 31 of 50 (336746)
07-30-2006 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by macaroniandcheese
07-30-2006 7:07 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
brenna, so you can't answer?
The truth is the civil righs movement was led by ministers of the gospel, and so the church as far as the churches of those ministers, did indeed lead the way there.
I think part of the problem is your assuming such a thing as a monolithic entity called the church exists organizationally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 7:07 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 8:39 PM randman has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 32 of 50 (336747)
07-30-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by randman
07-30-2006 8:31 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
I think part of the problem is your assuming such a thing as a monolithic entity called the church exists organizationally.
i know there is no such entity, do you?
but there is such a political entity as the 'evangelical movement' or 'christian voters' or what have you. these are what i am referring to.
The truth is the civil righs movement was led by ministers of the gospel, and so the church as far as the churches of those ministers, did indeed lead the way there.
note, those were black ministers. it was more a movement of black people than of christians. most white christians were either uninterested or strongly opposed. that or interested but not concerned enough to be actively involved in marches, sit-ins, strikes and the impending jail time.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 8:31 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-30-2006 9:01 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 9:07 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 36 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 9:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 50 (336757)
07-30-2006 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
07-30-2006 8:39 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
Look at the number of Christian Private Schools that were opened as the Civil Rights Acts were passed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 8:39 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 9:36 PM jar has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 34 of 50 (336760)
07-30-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
07-30-2006 8:39 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
note, those were black ministers. it was more a movement of black people than of christians. most white christians were either uninterested or strongly opposed. that or interested but not concerned enough to be actively involved in marches, sit-ins, strikes and the impending jail time.
The impression I've always got from watching documentaries about the civil rights movement is that the the whites who were actively involved would be charactised more as left wing radicals rather than Christians (although they could be both of course).
If any of our board regulars were involved at the time I'd be interested to know if this impression is actually correct.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 9:08 PM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-30-2006 9:43 PM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 42 by Coragyps, posted 07-30-2006 9:48 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 35 of 50 (336761)
07-30-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 9:07 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
So was Martin Luther King, jr a Christian minister or not? How about the rest of the ordained ministers active in the civil rights movement? Are they not part of the church?
Exactly what is your idea of the church?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 9:07 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by anglagard, posted 07-30-2006 9:13 PM randman has not replied
 Message 38 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 9:22 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 36 of 50 (336763)
07-30-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
07-30-2006 8:39 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
but there is such a political entity as the 'evangelical movement' or 'christian voters' or what have you. these are what i am referring to.
So white people are part of "the church" and blacks are not?
Moreover, on what basis do you have to make the claim that conservative, white Christian voters were pro-abortion when it became legal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 8:39 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-30-2006 11:32 PM randman has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 37 of 50 (336765)
07-30-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
07-30-2006 9:08 PM


Civil Rights Ministers and Others
So was Martin Luther King, jr a Christian minister
Sure as Malcolm X was a Muslim.

This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 38 of 50 (336768)
07-30-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
07-30-2006 9:08 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
MangyTiger writes:
the whites who were actively involved
randman writes:
So was Martin Luther King, jr a Christian minister or not?
Sure he was - but I've always been under the impression he was also black.
My post was about the whites who were actively involved in the Civil Rights movement, so I fail to see the how MLK jr. is relevant.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 9:08 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 9:27 PM MangyTiger has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 50 (336770)
07-30-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 9:22 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
You referred to "the church". Do you mean to qualify that and claim the white church?
If so, can you substantiate that the white church was pro-abortion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 9:22 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 10:10 PM randman has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 40 of 50 (336773)
07-30-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-30-2006 9:01 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
exactly.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 50 (336774)
07-30-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 9:07 PM


Religion and the Civil Rights Movement
As with so many things during that period, it was a mess, with people, churches, families, generations split.
I must also say that I can only speak from personal experience and so this should be taken as that.
The religious folk supporting the idea of equal rights for Blacks were mostly Black Christians, White Jews and White members of several of what many here have called the Liberal Churches, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Roman Catholics. I also met a few who were Southern Baptist as well as quite a few Friends and one Amish guy I remember since it was the first time he had ever been away from rural PA and he just couldn't stop talking about "How many people there were."
The people opposing rights for Blacks were almost all, 100% White Christians. Not only did the White Christian Churches (including some from the denominations listed as supporting rights for Blacks) oppose equal rights, They preached against it from the pulpit and they actively tried to avoid the results should Blacks actually succeed in gaining rights like riding on the same bus to school as the white kids or go to the same school or live in the same neighborhood or eat in the same resturant.
The period starting around 1957 saw an amazing growth in private Christian Church Schools. These were the "Avoidance Schools" and nearly every conservative church started one. They popped up like toadstools. The sole purpose of those schools was to make sure little white Johnny or little white Janie didn't have to sit next to some monkey. It was not just a southern phenomena either. The same thing was happening in Chicago and Boston and St. Louis and Newark and Hoboken and Philadelphia and Detroit.
Christians supported equal rights for Blacks. Christians also opposed allowing them to have such rights. And Christians were the more violent opposition, not staying in the courts, but bombing churches and schools, killing marchers, terrifying people in their homes, standing on the side walks and calling for the police to "Loose the dogs" or "Turn on the hoses".
It was some of Christianity's Brightest Hours, and some of the Darkest.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 07-30-2006 9:07 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-30-2006 9:58 PM jar has replied
 Message 44 by MUTTY6969, posted 07-30-2006 10:09 PM jar has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 42 of 50 (336777)
07-30-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by MangyTiger
07-30-2006 9:07 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
If any of our board regulars were involved at the time I'd be interested to know if this impression is actually correct.
I was about five years too young to be actively involved, but yes, my impression at the time was that the white folks marching in the South were not particularly churchy and were left-leaning. That was the FBI's impression, too, as they tended to equate them with Godless Pinko Communists and such. Quite a few of the non-black "names" in the civil rights movement were Jewish, too: of course, Jews were still fighting "redlining" and other forms of discrimination themselves even into the 60's.
I'm kinda proud to say that my Presbyterian minister father preached against racial discrimination and habitually wore an "equality" lapel pin in 1960 or so - in Arkansas.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 50 (336782)
07-30-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-30-2006 9:43 PM


Re: Religion and the Civil Rights Movement
The people opposing rights for Blacks were almost all, 100% White Christians. Not only did the White Christian Churches (including some from the denominations listed as supporting rights for Blacks) oppose equal rights, They preached against it from the pulpit and they actively tried to avoid the results should Blacks actually succeed in gaining rights like riding on the same bus to school as the white kids or go to the same school or live in the same neighborhood or eat in the same resturant.
How many of these churches were Southern churches rather than northern or western? That is, I think this was predominantly a Southern phenomenon, not a Christian phenomenon, but perhaps you can correct me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-30-2006 9:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 44 of 50 (336786)
07-30-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-30-2006 9:43 PM


Re: Religion and the Civil Rights Movement
I agree, my father was a adult ED teacher in Detroit for 40 years and friends with Rosa Parks, who I was fortunate enough to have as a babysitter from time to time growing up, and although she very rarely would talk about the incident on the bus or anything else that happened at that time, when she or any of the other older folk talked about that time it was not very glowing on white Christians.

Steve Rushin: "By the age of 18, the average American has witnessed 200,000 acts of violence on television, most of them occurring during Game 1 of the NHL playoff series."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-30-2006 9:43 PM jar has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 45 of 50 (336787)
07-30-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
07-30-2006 9:27 PM


Re: inconsistency and false gospel?
You referred to "the church". Do you mean to qualify that and claim the white church?
If so, can you substantiate that the white church was pro-abortion?
I think you've lost the plot - or at least the sub-thread of messages
My initial Message 34, reproduced below in it's entirety, does not contain the words "church" or "abortion". It was an observation and query on the demoraphy of whites who were actively involved in the Civil Rights movement.
note, those were black ministers. it was more a movement of black people than of christians. most white christians were either uninterested or strongly opposed. that or interested but not concerned enough to be actively involved in marches, sit-ins, strikes and the impending jail time.
The impression I've always got from watching documentaries about the civil rights movement is that the the whites who were actively involved would be charactised more as left wing radicals rather than Christians (although they could be both of course).
If any of our board regulars were involved at the time I'd be interested to know if this impression is actually correct.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 07-30-2006 9:27 PM randman has not replied

  
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