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Author Topic:   Finches named for Darwin are evolving
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 31 of 48 (335755)
07-27-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Cold Foreign Object
07-26-2006 9:50 PM


Re: This is wonderful evidence for CREATION!
I am no AiG fan for religious reasons, but it is obvious that you have an axe to grind for Darwin, therefore, however logical your observation may be, it is logical that the same criticism must apply to yourself. IOW, one could characterize your bias towards Darwin as the bias of a sweetheart.
This is faulty reasoning. I am not setting myself up as a source of information on Darwin - AIG does set themselves up as a source on creation and evolution issues. If I make a logical observation with the relevant citations my bias does not enter into it. And by the way, I have no reason to defend Darwin, contrary to your assertions. I do believe he was mostly correct in his evolutionary theory, yes, but if it could be shown that he stole the idea from someone else, it would not change my belief that his ideas were correct, I just would not attribute them to him anymore. On the other hand, AIG has a vested interest in discrediting Darwin because many creationists have the mistaken idea that if they somehow discredit Darwin as a person, it will reflect negatively on Darwinism the idea. Hence the nonsense that some have promulgated that Darwin recanted his theory on his deathbed. It is kind of like saying that if we prove that Henry Ford was anti-Jewish (which he was), it means that his method of mass producing cars on an assembly line was somehow flawed. Or that if we show that Ford got his idea for assembly line production from someone else, it means that his way of producing cars that way was flawed. Of course that is all nonsense, Ford's application of the assembly line for automobile production stands on its own merits (and there were flaws in Ford's approach) independent of Ford's anti-semitism or where he may have gotton the idea for assembly line production.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 32 of 48 (336233)
07-28-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
07-27-2006 12:35 PM


Re: This is wonderful evidence for CREATION!
Amusingly the entire point behind the Structure was summed up in the introduction. Darwin said that many elements of his ideas would be falsified in time, but that the structure of his theory would remain. So it was hardly a book championing Darwin's ideas. Then he spent several pages talking about the difference between 'structures' and 'frameworks' and architecture in general. Its not like all of the book is defending Darwin - its mostly saying he was wrong, but the structure/framework/archway/tree was right.
You are correct - except "Its not like all of the book is defending Darwin - its mostly saying he was wrong".
Gould calls natural selection the "essence" of the "central trunk" on the Tree of Life. If it gets undermined then the whole theory goes. I have written the invulnerable falsification of the central trunk in my forthcoming paper coming very soon.
Ray

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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 33 of 48 (336234)
07-29-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
07-28-2006 11:57 PM


Invisible Magic Paper
Gould calls natural selection the "essence" of the "central trunk" on the Tree of Life. If it gets undermined then the whole theory goes. I have written the invulnerable falsification of the central trunk in my forthcoming paper coming very soon.
I can't count how many times I have seen/heard this idle threat. Is the concept of the magic paper that never gets published part of YEC ideology?
Edited by anglagard, : proper tenses for proper senses

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 48 (336240)
07-29-2006 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by anglagard
07-29-2006 12:34 AM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I can't count how many times I have seen/heard this idle threat. Is the concept of the magic paper that never gets published part of YEC ideology?
no, just ray-martinez-ism. they bothered him about it at t.o so much that he disappeared.


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MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 35 of 48 (336260)
07-29-2006 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
07-28-2006 11:57 PM


Re: This is wonderful evidence for CREATION!
I’m sorry but when I read your post's I keep thinking of the movie se7en when Brad Pitt’s character (David Mills)is talking to Kevin Spacey's character and he asked him...
quote:
David Mills: I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how fucking crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

Steve Rushin: "By the age of 18, the average American has witnessed 200,000 acts of violence on television, most of them occurring during Game 1 of the NHL playoff series."

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 36 of 48 (336365)
07-29-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by anglagard
07-29-2006 12:34 AM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I can't count how many times I have seen/heard this idle threat. Is the concept of the magic paper that never gets published part of YEC ideology?
I am an OEC.
While I understand your point, yet, in reality, it is a legend since ToE was never true to begin with.
Whatever truth that your point does have, is easily explained by the fact that these persons were lying and I am not.
My paper explains, refutes and falsifies the following (uniquely and originally):
1. Natural Selection
2. Human Evolution
3. Macroevolution
4. Theistic Evolution (its better to be an atheist after I am through with these "Christians").
5. Charles Darwin will be taken to task like never before. 99% of everything written on him comes from Darwinists (sweethearts).
The point is, we have falsified ToE and the falsification is invulnerable. I am working as fast as I can but it will be worth the wait - I promise.
Ray Martinez, Protestant Evangelical
Edited by Herepton, : No reason given.
Edited by Herepton, : No reason given.
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 07-29-2006 2:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 37 of 48 (336369)
07-29-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2006 2:39 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
You're more than 2 months beyond a recent ETA. Would it be better to test out individual parts of your original idea here before you invest a lot of time polishing them?
This is obviously a very good place to get a thorough vetting of anything you want to write; you couldn't ask for a more critical audience.

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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 38 of 48 (336379)
07-29-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NosyNed
07-29-2006 2:53 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
You're more than 2 months beyond a recent ETA. Would it be better to test out individual parts of your original idea here before you invest a lot of time polishing them?
This is obviously a very good place to get a thorough vetting of anything you want to write; you couldn't ask for a more critical audience.
I toyed with that idea, and after creating a juicy excerpt, I decided that it would preempt the shock that I am thoroughly looking forward to.
Thanks for your interest in the forthcoming work. I am way over due. Do you think I should stop posting here until I am finished ? Just say the word and I will.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

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 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 07-29-2006 2:53 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 07-29-2006 3:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 43 by deerbreh, posted 07-31-2006 5:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 48 (336382)
07-29-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I started this but stop now. This is all off topic.
I toyed with that idea, and after creating a juicy excerpt, I decided that it would preempt the shock that I am thoroughly looking forward to
ray, i think you're counting your chickens before they hatch. i doubt anyone will be really shocked by anything -- mostly everything you've posted has been run of the mill standard creationist pratts -- and ad-hominem rants fueled by your inabality to refute.
Dr. Scott was the smartest man to ever live.
and the reverse of an ad-hominem argument, argument from authority. i hope there's really some content in your paper ray, and not just your standard anti-darwinist schizophrenic rants and hero worship. is it all dr scott teachings, or is there any original thought in it?
Thanks for your interest in the forthcoming work.
expect harsh criticism when (if) you do release it. people will examine your logic, arguments, references, and evidence very carefully, and make note of when you commit the various logical fallacies you're quite famous around the internet for, and when you make claims that are not established by any support. i know you'll just chalk this up to "darwinist rants" and take it as proof that you're correct in your belief, and you'll continue to live in your own little world thinking you've conquered darwinism.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-29-2006 3:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-29-2006 4:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 40 of 48 (336384)
07-29-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by arachnophilia
07-29-2006 3:53 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I started this but stop now. This is all off topic.
ray, i think you're counting your chickens before they hatch. i doubt anyone will be really shocked by anything -- mostly everything you've posted has been run of the mill standard creationist pratts -- and ad-hominem rants fueled by your inabality to refute.
and the reverse of an ad-hominem argument, argument from authority. i hope there's really some content in your paper ray, and not just your standard anti-darwinist schizophrenic rants and hero worship. is it all dr scott teachings, or is there any original thought in it?
cOmmintarrie ezily xplayned wen We reelize the wryter Is a Darwinist and I am a creaTIOist.
rAy
Edited by AdminNosy, : Topic warning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 07-29-2006 3:53 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 41 of 48 (336385)
07-29-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2006 4:21 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I started this but stop now. This is all off topic.
spelling and grammar easily explained when we realize the writter is a cult member.
Edited by AdminNosy, : Tpyc wrng

This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 42 of 48 (336992)
07-31-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2006 2:39 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I have a self-imposed ban of myself at Talk Origins until my paper is finished. Just wander over there and mention my name and see for yourself. The point is, we have falsified ToE and the falsification is invulnerable. I am working as fast as I can but it will be worth the wait - I promise.
And Joe McCarthy had a list of Commie pinkos right there in his coat pocket. I won't hold my breath, as I hate fainting.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 43 of 48 (336995)
07-31-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Invisible Magic Paper
I am way over due. Do you think I should stop posting here until I am finished ? Just say the word and I will.
Post away by all means. You are entertaining in the way of the end timers setting dates for the rapture that come and go. I for one would give my eye teeth to see the theory of evolution falsified in my lifetime. If it is going to happen I want to be around to see it. But as I noted in the other post, I am not holding my breath.
Edited by deerbreh, : edit quote codes

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bgmark2
Member (Idle past 6158 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 05-04-2007


Message 44 of 48 (401332)
05-19-2007 8:03 AM


Ok here is a rapture theory timed on Darwins release of Origins of the Species Darwin released his theory of evolution in 1858 AD and published it in 1859 exactly 150 years after this date is 2008 or 2009 AD. This book that Darwin published is a major sorce for disbelief in God.
If each day is a month being 30 days and if one day can be used to signify one year in Bible prophecy, as has been used by the Lord before in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. then the 5 months in Revelations 9:5 would end in 2008/2009 with the return of the Lord.
The sting like a scorpion, in Revelations 9 is referring to disbelief in God or skepticism metaphorically. Of course this disbelief and skeptism will end when the Lord returns, as 'every knee shall bow'. But first there must be a nuclear war unfortunately. Then the rapture.

What about coconuts?

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 48 (508114)
05-10-2009 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ramoss
07-18-2006 8:58 AM


Bump for Trev777
Hi Trev777,
This is a thread about the evolution of the finches on the Galapagos Islands. From Message 1, the opening post:
quote:
News Article
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Finches on the Galapagos Islands that inspired Charles Darwin to develop the concept of evolution are now helping confirm it -- by evolving.
A medium sized species of Darwin's finch has evolved a smaller beak to take advantage of different seeds just two decades after the arrival of a larger rival for its original food source.
The altered beak size shows that species competing for food can undergo evolutionary change, said Peter Grant of Princeton University, lead author of the report appearing in Friday's issue of the journal Science.
This is the exact senerio that had lead Darwin to the concept of natural selection being the origin of species.
Notice that this talks about natural selection, not speciation.
From your Message 72:
Darwin collected what he regarded as 9 finch species during his voyage on Beagle 1831-1836). These finches were classified as sparate species based on their beak shape, size, colour, feeding etc. darwin's argument sounded so good, no-one bothered to test it by seeing if they were really separate and could not interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Now it has been discovered that Darwins finches can interbreed and produce fertile offspring if given the opportunity, so they are really one species, and provide no evidence for the evolution of new species, and never have. This historic first and foundational evidence for Darwin's theory turns out to be false.
All creatures adapt but they don't evolve into another creature. Adaption is the built in ability of living creatures to cope with changes in their environment. The same goes for humans, the different skin colours were all in-built so that the sons of Noah and their generations adapted to the various climates as they spread across the globe.
You have a couple of misconceptions here.
(1) they are still classed as separate species because they do not normally interbreed. Being able to interbreed does not invalidate the process of speciation if different populations don't interbreed. Even the fact of occasional hybrids does not invalidate the designation as separate species if the numbers of hybrids are extremely low compared to the general population. Because of the physical boundary imposed by the distance between islands, this is the case. In situations like this the gene flow between the two populations is still hindered by the physical barrier, rather than a genetic one.
A species is defined as a population or a group of populations that share genetic material from generation to generation. There are many definitions of species, and the most common one is the biological species definition:
From U.Mich Dept of Biology
quote:
Biological species concept: This concept states that "a species is a group of actually or potentially interbreeding individuals who are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
Note that this does not say that interbreeding is impossible, just that it is not normally observed.
(2) this is certainly an example of natural selection, part of the process of evolution that results in speciation, resulting in distinct populations with distinctly different features.
Evolution is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation, and this is certainly the case for these finches.
Whether this is an example of speciation as well as evolution is relatively unimportant. Even if this were not speciation, it doesn't invalidate the fact that speciation has been observed and has occurred. If you want to talk about speciation, there are other examples that demonstrate this process, however it is important that we are talking about the same thing.
See Definition of Species for a discussion of the definition of species. The reason I say this is because this statement of yours shows that you do not understand what evolutionary biologists call speciation:
All creatures adapt but they don't evolve into another creature.
This is a creationist straw man, rather than an element of evolutionary biology. See MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
This is also NOT speciation. The difference required for one species to evolve into a different entire type of species is much more than speciation, and it involves the accumulated changes of many speciation events.
If you want to discuss this further you can try your hand at: Dogs will be Dogs will be ???.
Hope that helps.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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