Christian Pride.

Not an atheist, but similiar-enough to answer . This is only a part of the reason that the idea of a creator is unsatisfying, but not the reason to reject a creator. The idea of a creator is rejected on the basis that there is no evidence for the creator. There is, in fact, evidence which would clearly show that there ISN'T a creator. I can't see this as being a reason for the pride, since Christians believe that all people are creations of said creator. They may feel special for actually communicating, but they most likely believe that all people have the ability to communicate if they so choose. A little change-up on this one to make it more true: They will have an afterlife, while atheists won't. I think most Christians believe that everyone has the chance to be saved and the chance at an afterlife. It's just that the Christians believe they're the only ones who will get the benefit of that chance. A Christian sees all acts as being by the creator, whether the act of an atheist or of a fellow Christian.I think the real thing leading to Christian arrogance is their belief that THEY have been saved, and that only the SAVED (them) will have eternal life, while the rest of the heathans of the world will burn in eternal Hell fire.Apparently, living an imaginary forever is better than living it up in a real right-now .Jon

First off. I do not think it, I know it. As to smug? Well I'm not. A created being feeling smug because it was created. How delightfully dotty What about you? How are you feeling I wouldn't have stopped at him being a person, but personhood is something we share so that was what I mentioned. We are made in his image and likeness so there are some lines where we cross. But he is as you imply: infinitely well...bigger... than me.You can talk to him to and he can 'talk' to you. But he has to open lines of communication with you. I didn't open them, so I cannot feel smug about it. I am delighted by the fact. Dazzled at times. The creator of the universe cares and wants to commune with me. In fact he wants to commune with me more than I with him - who would believe it. Sin is still there - it gets in the way. But I'd like to be able to commune with him more.It can be awe-striking Legend - as you might imagine given you conceive of how BIG he is. Athiests are just people who reject God. They will have their way forever if that is what they want. But up until the time they die (or until God stops calling them - whichever comes first) they have the same chance as everyone else. All were born rejecting God. I don't feel proud. I feel privileged that he took so much effort. He puts the same effort into saving everyone. So no, I am not special in any sense of me being placed "above " or being more "worthy" than anyone else. No one is worthy of it. Its a gift given due to HIS grace, not my worthiness. I don't see any contradiction. God loves you even though you are a sinner.I don't know how you feel in order to say I feel better than you. Feeling change whether you are a Christian or not anyway. You don't think we walk around on cloud nine do you I feel something that you cannot. But it is also the case that you do not miss what you never had. I wouldn't trade what I have for the world. But thats from my perspective. From your perspective I am worthy of pity perhaps. This is all very subjective Legend.Besides, God uses wrath in order to draw you. You do things wrong God ensures you suffer partial consequences (the full consequences come later should you persist in unbelief). They helped draw me to him for that wrath can lead one to despair. Despair isn't the only route...but its not a bad one. Think of pain being good. If you didn't feel pain you might rest your hand on a hot object and not feel it. Pain is telling you something. Same thing. So you may be thankful that God acts in this way upon you. He will use any method he can to get you if he can - he loves you that much. I am special in his eyes. So are you. He created you for himself and he wants you. Until the very end he will struggle for you. I don't take pride in how he views me I am rather humbled by it when I truly reflect. I am proud of him however. What a God. I am proud that he is my father. But there is nothing unusual in a son being proud of his father. It is not abnormal to hero-worship your father.Its not "loose your pride or else" to my mind. That would imply you have to do something to be saved. Don't reject Gods attempt to strip that particular pride that refuses to acknowledge him and his rightful place in your life (ie: him on the throne of your life - not you) and you will be a son too. It's pride that causes us to refuse to acknowledge that. It must be done away with.But we can hang on and refuse to give it up. Refuse to be saved in other words. So I suppose it is true to say that and athiest (or whatever the rejection mechanism is) is the more proud - they will not kneel before him.But its not like pride goes away. You can be proud in an ugly way as a Christian. But not in that sense anymore. Once you acknowledge God you cannot go back. You won't want to - you won't be able to. But you will refuse his instruction and guidance afterward. Many times if I'm anything to go by. That is pride to. Wanting independance.Put it this way. Becoming a Christian means you permit him to sit in the driving seat of your life. Once he is there he will stay there. But as a passanger, you will lean over and grab the wheel and try and tug it in the direction you want to go again. It happens, honest!

Sorry, can't resist exposing another bad analogy. God wants you to drive your own life. He might provide the fuel and He might tune up your engine once in a while, but He is not your personal chauffeur. Thinking He is is eminently prideful.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

God created them. Creating something doesn't infer fathership - especially when the fathership a Christian receives is a step one. Christians are adopted sons. Until then, satan is everybodies spiritual father.God "loves the sinner hates the sin" seems apt enough so I wouldn't use the phrase in a derogatory sense. It is a fact unfortunately, but no Christian was any different themselves so it is somewhat silly to point at people as if they are somehow 'less'. To look down on them. That is truly arrogant and proud. Such Christians are sinning and can expect discipline and will give an account to God for it Its not pride that lets me state it. Its a matter of fact (and I don't mean that in a matter of fact way). Someone asks me is this the case. What do I do? Lie? I don't get the follow the Lord of your own free will bit DL. As to the rest. A person is a Christian for one and one reason only. God choose them - that is plain from the gospel. And a person is damned for one reason and one reason only: they rejected his attempt to save them - that too is clear from the gospel.Now those two things might not provide with a nice pat answer that is fully intellectually reconcilable but the message is plain enough for us to know where we stand.One might ask "Why does God elect some to be saved". The answer is " because that is what scripture makes plain (say Romans 9). Now we may speculate: "Well, given foreknowledge of who will reject him, he can elect those who don't and apply the saving power of the gospel to them". But it is useless to speculate on things that happen in a time-less dimension and with a God who has knowledge of things before they happen. Maybe what I say is it, maybe not - I don't know. Paul, in Romans 9 blows the person who insists on knowing the precise workings of this out of the water. "Who are you oh man..."Suffice to say, the way to damnation is clear. Reject his attempt to save you. Who said everybody was his child?

quote:

---

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

---

God didn't force me in the least. He called and called and called. Eventually I stopped rejecting his call and heard it. When I heard it I responded. It seemed like the best thing to do at the time. But I didn't have to. Funnily, my own mother, who became a Christian before me and with whom I had blazing rows about the 'ludicrous' things she tried to tell me actually heard his call twice before saying 'yes'. On those occasions she actually found herself saying to she did not know what "Go away - not now!!" She didn't know what it was to which she responded (for who can know its God before they know its God) but she could still deny it even that close in.Myself, I remember God giving me a 'blast' of his love about 10 years before I became a Christian and I didn't even think about where it came from. It was overwhelming at the time but he didn't reveal who was doing it - so I didn't figure it was from him. Like I say, we are not children until he adopts us. Greek storytelling like you say. Your drawing apple conclusions from a pear (although if an evolutionist you may not consider even that far off the mark - but you get the point ) Edited by iano, : No reason given.

quote:

---

"*blink*, I can't believe you really said that!"

---

Lol!Rrhain, where are you?

quote:

---

That a person could look around and say accident was, I think, one of the things which got me wondering. "It doesn't fit" would have been the thought that ran through my heart of hearts.

---

Or, said another way, "It makes me feel uncomfortable."

I was always uncomfortable. It was around then I knew why. "It doesn't fit" came as a result of my realising (or requiring) that it must. Fit.The conflict in Israel: "its because the nation state of israel was formed under poorly conceived circumstances and it uprooted Palestinians from their land... and it is a matter of debate whether it was their land.... and the jews lived there 2000 years ago and...and...and....""We evolved we came from apes they came from somewhere else all the way back to....well we don't know nor can we ever for we can never know the conditions of the earth then to know whether those conditions could cause life to arise from non-life - despite our brewing up all sorts in the abio-labs""The reason so many starvein Africa is because those people are tribal and that results in lots of infighting which makes it impossible to get the stable government necessary to apply policies to...and the west in their selfishness are not willing to sacrifice sufficient in order to give an hand up to their fellow...and, and and""The universe is expanding so it looks like it had a beginning that bounced or didn't bounce maybe and the stuff that made it came from...well we will never know because the laws of physics don't apply and so we are tool-less about it. This story will run and run..."Disparate issues without end. Now a person can be quite happy dealing with the micro and not worry about a final fit. On one level we must operate there. But no resolution. No actual, final answers?Turns out the macro reason for it all fits. In the context of God and what he says about the world it fits perfectly. "Seek and you shall find" indeed. Not that I take credit. He was the one prodding me along. The one stoking my discomfort.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

It might "fit" to you, but I really don't understand this at all. The Christian God is so parochial it beggars belief! All of his actions are limited to a tiny patch of land 2000 years ago. The Bible, as far as I'm concerned, has very little to say about the modern world and its "disparate" issues.

quote:

---

I was always uncomfortable. It was around then I knew why. "It doesn't fit" came as a result of my realising (or requiring) that it must. Fit.

---

Why must it fit?Just so you can ease your discomfort?

quote:

---

Turns out the macro reason for it all fits. In the context of God and what he says about the world it fits perfectly.

---

Sounds like man invented God to make things "fit" when he got a big enough brain to wonder about such things.When he got a big enough brain to understand the inevitability of his own death, he invented God to take away the fear and the pain.The "discomfort", if you will. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

hey rick, your screen name wouldn't mean "rick james bitch" would it?

apologies if I misrepresented you. The OP mainly addresses the bulk of Christianity, people who think they are the conscious creation of God and that they will have an afterlife as a result of their belief in the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

---

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I think that's true only for a small minority of Christians, mainly fundamentalists. I think the average Catholic, Orthodox or C of E believer derive a certain smugness from the presence of an invisible, yet all-powerful 'friend', who they can talk to or ask for his help, while you -as an atheist- can't.It's a bit like when my big brother was in the same school as me. I knew that the local bullies wouldn't come near me when he was there while they would still pick on my classmates. I used to be a lot more cocky when he was around than when he wasn't.

---

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Smugness comes not considering the fact that you were created but considering by whom and why you were created. Tell me, would you feel the same way if you knew you were created by a leprechaun while he was bored because his telly broke and he had nothing to do with his time ? I don't think so.as per how I'm feeling.... not as smug as you! Feeling privileged is kind of feeling proud, isn't it ? fair point, but the topic is about whether Christians are more proud / self-important / arrogant / smug because of their beliefs. I think, from what you've written so far, that your self-importance has defintively increased since you've converted. well, that's what I'm getting at. You are -as a Christian- proud to have such a father. I -as an atheist- haven't even got a father at all.then, in the next paragraph, you go on to say: this is exactly what the OT is about: Christians implying that the atheist has some sort of 'pride' that they haven't that prevents them from accepting God.In the meantime, we've been discussing that you're the one who has a powerful father - I haven't.
You're the one who was created by the almighty for a reason - not me.
You're the one who has a communications channel to the supreme being - I haven't.
You're the one who will be enjoying an afterlife in heaven - not me.So what kind of pride is this that I have and you haven't that prevents me from accepting God?where does it come from ? I have nothing to feel special or proud about, you on the other hand have loads of things.If anything, I should be the one saying to you that your pride prevents you from acknowledging reality!Edited by Legend, : spelling

---

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Now now now.Don't you know that Christians are the HUMBLIST people around. God personally chose them to be his humble servants, and there are no one humbler then they are. Just ask them. You can't IMAGINE how humble they are.

Self-satisfied. Satisfied with self. If I played a fantastic round of golf I could sit over a pint at the 19th hole and be quietly smug or openly smug about it. About what I did. Self. I cannot be smug about what someone else did. Pick another word if you like - this one is not applicable in a technical sense No it is not. Privileged is a different word than proud. I used the word privileged because I meant what privileged means - which is not proud. Privileged means feeling thankful or honoured for what you have whilst recognising yourself as not being intrinsically and by right deserving of it. Proud means something else. What you think is less the issue than what you can argue to be the case. Think what you like I have no objection to being considered as being proud in that healthy sense. Being proud of someone else when it doesn't relect on any merit in yourself is not a proud I would worry about particularily. eg: "I am proud of my friend because through HER bravery SHE saved that man from drowning" The pride is relected outwards towards someone else and not at selfEdited by iano, : No reason given.