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Author | Topic: How Hard Was it Raining During the Flood? Could the Ark Survive? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Faith writes: there were no very high mountains like Everest at the time How is it not adding to scripture to make a claim like this? You cannot get this kind of detail from the text. The text mentions mountains and it mentions 15 cubits of water. If the 15 cubits is from sea level, there would be no mention of mountains because even assuming the "long cubit" of Ezekiel we are talking about 30 feet. No one calls that a "mountain". So the 15 cubits must be over the tallest mountain. Now, where are we told there were no mountains as high as Mt. Everest?
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. On edit: Even a text to the effect of: "The mountains were not as high in those days." would cut it. But I don't see anything like that. Do you? Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Problem is you can't do the calculation assuming mountains "not as high as Mt. Everest" because we don't know how high that is. It is not 15 cubits because at most that is 30 feet and that is not a mountain in anybody's book.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Perhaps Gen 7:20 means that the floodwaters exceeded the tops of the highest mountains at the time by 15 cubits It HAS to be that. Nothing else makes sense. But that is a problem. If you throw out the Everest number (which there is no scriptural justification for, as I pointed out to Faith), you are left with.....what? Nothing. Can't do the calculations.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Surface area of a sphere X height should approximate it fairly well. Use diameter of the earth. You should be able to Google the surface area of a sphere formula and the diameter of the earth. The earth is slightly flattened at the poles but the figure should be close enough. It is all guesswork anyway if we can't plug in the height of Everest.
On edit: I see you have the surface area calculated in the OP. So the rest is simple. Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given. Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
I don't see how the verse is saying that the water covered the mountains by 15 cubits.... There has to be a point of reference for the 15 cubits. It can't be sea level because that doesn't make sense. The only thing left is the tops of the mountains. You are avoiding the question of why we don't have to assume Everest existed based on the text. Anyway plugging in anything else "as the thread progresses" is just idle speculation - pretty much useless.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Calculate it for all possibilities. Why not? Ok, just for chuckles, what ARE the possibilities besides Everest, then? Which mountains existed before the Flood? You are the one rewriting geology. You tell us.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
That's not what I was suggesting. The idea was to start with Everest and work your way down to other possible interpretations, as they come up in the thread.
Well you are still avoiding the difficult questions but OK then,
In any case START WITH EVEREST. That ought to give some pretty solid numbers. Everest is 29, 028 ft high. Add to that 30 feet and we have 29,058 feet. Change to miles we have 5.5 miles. Multiply by 197,000,000 square miles and we have: 1,083,500,000 cubic miles. Now all we need is a calculation of the volume of the land above sea level. Subtract that number from mine and you will have an approximation of the cubic miles of water that fell as rain and came up from the deep. Then subtract your estimate of the amount that came up from the deep and you will have the volume of rain. Should be a cinch but I will let someone else do it and get the glory. Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
I think the problem with your method is you are not taking into account the volume displaced by the land and mountains which lies above sea level. Think of it as a giant bathtub with a big pile of dirt in the middle. It takes less water to fill it.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
I think it is only total surface area that we need as the water has to fill in everywhere above sea level, including where water exists already.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
What we really need is someone to step up to the plate and have a swing at identifying "the deep." Therein lies the rub. If one starts calculating the theoretical amount of water that the crust can hold, for example, I am sure a very large number can be obtained. However, how much of that water would have been "available" and what would have been the force propelling it to the surface? The force not only has to overcome gravity, but it also has to overcome adhesive and cohesive forces holding the water right where it is. These questions are pretty much unknowable, so, as with all attempts to "rationalize" the Flood, this one is bound to fail as well.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Yes. 31 feet per hour, 24/7 for 40 days from fountains + windows. And assuming most of that is fountains of the deep - which are mentioned as opening first, then the rain started, the size of the tidal waves generated is mind boggling. The ark would have been carried right across the continent and slammed into those mountains it seems.
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. So I don't think the main problem for Noah would have been the rate of the rainfall so much as the waves generated by those fountains opening up.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Jar writes: You do need to remember that you are not filling a cylinder but rather a conic shape, the base being one inch and the top the area described by extending lines perpendicular to the earths surface. You are filling the area between two spheres, one equal to the earth at sea level, the larger the earth plus height of everest + some fudge factor. Ok. volume of a sphere = 4/3 x pi x (radius cubed) diameter of earth = 7926 miles; radius = 3963 milesradius of earth + everest = 3963 + 5.5 = 3968.5 miles outer volume = 4/3 x 3.14 x (3968.5 cubed) = 261,666,130,000inner volume = 4/3 x 3.14 x (3963 cubed) = 260,579,700,000 difference = 1,086,430,000 cu miles Actually the same as what I got before considering rounding errors I think. Think of it as a whole bunch of cylinders abbutting each other in every direction around the earth.On edit: No I think you are correct Jar. So this number I got here should be more accurate. Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given. Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
answers writes: ... in the Middle East, which is vitally dependent on seasonal river floods for irrigation, the rivers, such as the Nile, Jordan, Euphrates, or Tigris, flooding usually happens without any visible rain. One warm spring day the river just starts rising even though there hasn't been any rain, and maybe not even any clouds for several days. The river just keeps rising and rushing until it overflows its banks and causes major flooding. This river rise is due of course to snow melting or rain in mountain watersheds that can be hundreds of miles away. This also happens in mountain states like California where major spring flooding often occurs on otherwise delightful sunny days. So, how does one explain the river rise if one knows nothing about the mountain snow melt? It is obviously do to water welling up from the deep. And that means that there must be vast amounts of water beneath the earth's surface (as well as above the dome of the sky). By George I think he's got it. So, if we say that the "fountains of the deep" are actually snow melt, then we need some historical estimate of the maximum flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Actually we are in luck. I found a reference which discusses the Tigris River. Apparently the Tigris is subject to more catastrophic flooding than the Euphrates and the record is a rise of 27 feet in 1954.http://www.jameswbell.com/a008thetigrisriver.html So let's be conservative and double that - let's say it is possible to explain a 54 foot rise in water from mountain snow melt. Then it started to rain. How fast did the rain come down to pile up enough water to cover Everest with 15 cubits (30 feet) in 40 days. If we make the snow melt (fountains of the deep) 58 feet, we are left with exactly 29,000 feet of water in 40 days or 960 hours.29,000/960 = 30.2 feet/hour or roughly 6 inches/minute. Seems like we had that before but this time it is all rain. Hopefully the ark roof did not leak and the deck was completely covered. Otherwise that baby is going to sink the first hour.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Ok, let's use the new numbers.
Snow melt (fountains of the deep) = max of 54 feet.28,940 - 54 = 28,886 ft 28,886/960 = 30.1 feet/hour - much more likely! Actually still approximately 6 inches per minute. Maybe the pitch will keep the roof from leaking for the first 20 days or so? So the ark won't sink until day 21.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2923 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
Guzik quote writes: b. And the mountains were covered: This took a lot of water, but there is plenty of water on the earth today to do this - but because of the topography of the earth, the water is collected into oceans. If the earth were a perfect sphere, the oceans would cover the land to a depth of two-and-a-half to three miles. Before the cataclysmic flood, the earth may have been much nearer to a perfect sphere. Ok, an alternative view then is that enough water came from the fountains of the deep to cover the land with three miles of water. That still leaves approximately 2.5 miles of water to fall as rain. So:2.5 miles = 13200 feet; divide by 960 = 13.8 feet per hour for 40 days. So we are down to 2.76 inches per minute for 40 days. I still think that baby is going to sink. Furthermore, where did the 2.5 miles of water go after the flood? Three miles of water goes back into the oceans in this scenario. You still have 2.5 miles of water to account for. And we are not even getting into the havoc that would result from the shape of the earth changing from a perfect sphere to a flattened sphere in a time span of less than a year. Maybe the ark was flung into orbit after all.
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