Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Could this really have happened?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 151 of 159 (325885)
06-24-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Nighttrain
06-24-2006 9:57 PM


Re: sources cited
in the text, it's probably (sefer) though i'll admit i didn't really look. sefer applies just fine to both bound books and scrolls (and apparently, tablets, too). this probably because of the bible, in fact. modern hebrew is derived from biblical hebrew, and so when the scrolls became bound books in the society, the word for "scroll" also became the word for "book."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Nighttrain, posted 06-24-2006 9:57 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Nighttrain, posted 07-08-2006 9:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 152 of 159 (329960)
07-08-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by arachnophilia
06-24-2006 10:21 PM


What did Hilkiah find?
As activity on this thread is stagnant at present, I thought we might pursue the 'book' biz a little further.
'Megillah' as Hebrew for scroll developed shortly before the Babylonian exile-'Ancient Scribes and Scripts and the Clues They Leave'--Richard Hanson.
I haven`t had time to mull it through yet, but my thinking goes somewhat along these lines---
The longest scroll found to date measured 32 feet (67 columns?) which must limit the length of the 'book' contained within, therefore the 'book'/scroll found by Hilkiah must have only contained a limited amount of the Torah (usually believed to be Deuteronomy). Therefore, where were the other books of the Torah found?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 10:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 1:23 AM Nighttrain has replied
 Message 157 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 12:46 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 153 of 159 (330014)
07-09-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Nighttrain
07-08-2006 9:16 PM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
'Megillah' as Hebrew for scroll
ok, i double checked. formally, ’— (megillah) is only used for five particular books: song of songs, esther, ruth, lamentations, and ecclesiastes.
the word in question above is indeed (sefer).
sometimes, the two are used in conjugations, ie: "the scroll of the book" so i would imagine that "book" has a slightly different meaning.
The longest scroll found to date measured 32 feet (67 columns?) which must limit the length of the 'book' contained within, therefore the 'book'/scroll found by Hilkiah must have only contained a limited amount of the Torah (usually believed to be Deuteronomy). Therefore, where were the other books of the Torah found?
traditionally, it is believed that ezra redacted the torah, and his scribes compiled it from memory/inspiration of god. i sort of doubt that story. but i don't really understand your question, either. why must they have been found? they might have simply been in the possesion of the temple since their writing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Nighttrain, posted 07-08-2006 9:16 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Nighttrain, posted 07-09-2006 2:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 154 of 159 (330020)
07-09-2006 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by arachnophilia
07-09-2006 1:23 AM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
First up, I don`t know whether the whole of the Torah will fit on one scroll. Sites I`ve Googled show either two or five scrolls produced today for Jewish ceremonies.If ancient scrolls were shorter, then maybe less could be written on one scroll. Materials differ in rolling size,e.g. papyrus versus parchment versus modern paper. However, I imagine modern scrolls contain vowels and thus would be longer.
2Kings 22:->refer to a singular 'book'/scroll repeatedly and I wonder where and when the other books were recovered. Were they still hidden? Did Hilkiah get the writing urge? Is the whole episode a bottleneck in what came down to us? During renovations to the Temple, the 'book of the law' was found. Was the scroll of sufficient length to hold the full Torah? Was the whole Torah referred to as a 'book' prior to Hilkiah`s discovery? Was a number of scrolls referred to collectively as a 'book' pre-Hilkiah? Maybe the Hebrew word for 'book' has a couple of meanings (individual and a collective)?
I can`t find any discussion on the subject though I`m sure someone has delved into it in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 1:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 4:01 AM Nighttrain has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 155 of 159 (330030)
07-09-2006 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Nighttrain
07-09-2006 2:09 AM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
First up, I don`t know whether the whole of the Torah will fit on one scroll.
i highly doubt it. the current divisions are probably due to scroll-length, actually. so i would venture a guess at 5 scrolls.
However, I imagine modern scrolls contain vowels and thus would be longer.
no, not at all.
compare, for instance, my signature WITH vowels:
to my signature WITHOUT vowels:
(hopefully, your computer displays that correctly. they should be the same length) vowels come in the form of points, generally below, but sometimes above or between consonants. they don't affect letter placement, and were specifically designed so they would not. traditionally, scribes were not allowed to add or subtract even a single letter from the torah, and so they designed a system of vowels that would aid the reader without disturbing the actual text.
Kings 22:->refer to a singular 'book'/scroll repeatedly and I wonder where and when the other books were recovered.
it's generally thought that this scroll was deuteronomy.
i'm not sure what you mean by the rest of the question.
Was a number of scrolls referred to collectively as a 'book' pre-Hilkiah?
it's generally thought that ezra redacted the torah together from separate sources, which would be a while after this point iirc. prior to that, there were probably multiple scrolls, a "j" scroll, an "e" scroll, a "p" scroll, and an "l" scroll. it's hard to say if they had these already when they "found" the d scroll, as we find people prior to that discovery following laws found only in deut. so we can't really trust the author of kings (writing AFTER the discovery) to tell us about what the people he's writing about knew.
truth be told, d might actually be the oldest book of the torah. some dates for parts of genesis put it around 600bc, right around exile. so the torah as a whole HAD to be compiled after that point. but how far back the individual sources go? i'm not sure.
but i don't think ANY of the scrolls were discovered. i suspect very highly that deuteronomy was written under the reign of josiah for very specific ends -- and it seems to me like it's modifying a source that already existed.
Maybe the Hebrew word for 'book' has a couple of meanings (individual and a collective)?
well, they seem to use "scroll" for something informal or in progress, and "book" for something finalized and academic/holy. it's not a perfect, clear cut distinction, however.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Nighttrain, posted 07-09-2006 2:09 AM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 07-09-2006 11:42 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 159 (330071)
07-09-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by arachnophilia
07-09-2006 4:01 AM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
arachnophilia writes:
but i don't think ANY of the scrolls were discovered. i suspect very highly that deuteronomy was written under the reign of josiah for very specific ends -- and it seems to me like it's modifying a source that already existed.
The whole I-found-a-new-scroll scenario is almost a cliche. ("I found George Washington's diary in my attic - and boy is it going to change history!")

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 4:01 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 4:12 PM ringo has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 157 of 159 (330080)
07-09-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Nighttrain
07-08-2006 9:16 PM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
Formally, Megillah is the hebrew word for "STORY", not scroll.
Remember "Megillah gorilla".. that literally meant 'A story about a gorilla'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Nighttrain, posted 07-08-2006 9:16 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2006 4:10 PM ramoss has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 158 of 159 (330119)
07-09-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ramoss
07-09-2006 12:46 PM


megillot
Formally, Megillah is the hebrew word for "STORY", not scroll.
i had heard that, literally, it's "scroll" but is often used to describe literature and ("long") stories. thje root comes from "galal" meaning reveal, as one reveals the text of a scroll by unrolling it.
for instance, of the five megillot, THREE are not stories at all: ecclesiastes, lamentation, song of songs.
Edited by arachnophilia, : subtitle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ramoss, posted 07-09-2006 12:46 PM ramoss has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 159 of 159 (330120)
07-09-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
07-09-2006 11:42 AM


Re: What did Hilkiah find?
The whole I-found-a-new-scroll scenario is almost a cliche. ("I found George Washington's diary in my attic - and boy is it going to change history!")
well, this one DID change history. josiah completely revamps temple judaism, because of the scroll (or, rather, vice-versa). he destroys the bronze serpent moses made in the desert, and bans all other worship outside the temple.
i find the whole thing HIGHLY suspect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 07-09-2006 11:42 AM ringo has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024