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Author Topic:   International opinions: USA on science!
Hauk
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 132 (329131)
07-05-2006 10:54 PM


I would like do discuss the opinions among americans about the ID theory and their political image outside the US. Being Norwegian, we all do worry about the negative trend as we see a population moving away from logics, and into what many europeans (and americans) consider a setback. Many of my friends are really concerned about our great US brothers general future shold ID theory gain more support. Do supporters of ID in america even worry a little bit about the fact that the rest of the world is directly shocked? What about image guys? These days US ID supporters are frequently considered similar to taleban.
Just to inform. Governmental national UK and Norwegian TV seem to be running anti ID campaigns these days in order to prevent the spread of this insane ideology. Norwegian governmental TV (NRK) even made a big special on darwin recently (Newton, a science program for kids). It was obviously an attempt to immunize norwegian youth towards this ideological pest. How well do the average american feel about this development as all americal knowhow and skills are about to be branded "less worthy" in the international world of science?
Edited by Hauk, : The original post was written after several hours in a pub. Several spelling and language corrections.

The fool on the hill

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 07-06-2006 1:51 AM Hauk has replied
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 07-06-2006 12:00 PM Hauk has replied
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-06-2006 11:07 PM Hauk has replied
 Message 25 by anglagard, posted 07-07-2006 2:33 AM Hauk has not replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 132 (329176)
07-06-2006 1:46 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 132 (329180)
07-06-2006 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hauk
07-05-2006 10:54 PM


Many of my friends are really concerned about our good big US brothers general future,
we worry too. we worry too.
Do supporters of ID in america even worry a little bit about the fact that the rest of the world is directly shocked about the fact that this theory have supporters? What about image guys?
this is the same crowd that knocked john kerry in the last election for actually caring about what the rest of the world thought of america. so i'm gonna guess "no."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hauk, posted 07-05-2006 10:54 PM Hauk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Hauk, posted 07-06-2006 7:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Hauk
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 132 (329233)
07-06-2006 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
07-06-2006 1:51 AM


Americans
My original post was probably a bit harsh on the americans. We all know that the majority of your population still have the ability to steer away from this nonsence. It is still however something european media are not in any way afraid to critisize and make fun of as an american phenomenon. In a recent science program there was an comment from Dawkins, reassuring us all (europeans) that "ID theory DO NOT have support in the scientific america. It ONLY has support among the part of the population that dont know anything"... The next cut was of course directly over to Mr Bush talking warmly about ID.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by Mammuthus, posted 07-06-2006 7:47 AM Hauk has not replied
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2006 8:04 AM Hauk has not replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-06-2006 9:54 AM Hauk has not replied
 Message 14 by ramoss, posted 07-06-2006 10:17 AM Hauk has not replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 132 (329236)
07-06-2006 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
quote:
My original post was probably a bit harsh on the americans. We all know that the majority of your population still have the ability to steer away from this nonsence.
I don't know that at all (I'm American).
I do not think your post was harsh.
quote:
It is still however something european media are not in any way afraid to critisize and make fun of as an american phenomenon. In a recent science program there was an comment from Dawkins, reassuring us all (europeans) that "ID theory DO NOT have support in the scientific america. It ONLY has support among the part of the population that dont know anything"... The next cut was of course directly over to Mr Bush talking warmly about ID.
It is shameful and terribly mortifying that we elected this slow-witted, small-minded, cruel man to be President.
Twice.
I still cringe to think of it, and I still cannot stand to listen to his voice.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 7:46 AM nator has replied
 Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-06-2006 10:03 AM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 132 (329238)
07-06-2006 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
07-06-2006 7:18 AM


Re: Americans
It is shameful and terribly mortifying that we elected this slow-witted, small-minded, cruel man to be President.
Our own Taoiseach (President-equivilent) Bertie Ahearn comes across as a bit of a fool. His command of the English language is poor, until the imagemakers got a hold of him he used to look like something the cat dragged in. He fumbles and bumbles his way through the order of the day in the Dail (Parliment). He is no real match when it comes to dealing with the witticisms and barbs of the more orator-minded opposition, we cringe when he stands to make a speech for the numbskullery it might contain.
He is known as the Telfon Taoiseach - for no matter what hooky stuff his appointees get involved in, he ever manages to distance himself and emerges a few months later with top ratings in the polls
A recently deceased former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, an objectively able politician, who struck fear into the heart of the opposition for many years and acted as mentor to bumbling Bertie described him as:
"the best, the most skillful, the most devious and the most cunning of them all."
Appearances can be deceptive. Very often they are designed to be.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 7:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 8:56 AM iano has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 7 of 132 (329239)
07-06-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
I am also American and do not find your criticism harsh. In fact, a not insignificant number of Americans could not find Norway on a map much less have any clue regarding international opinion. What should frighten europeans is that the anti-science agenda being pushed in the US is being exported to europe i.e. the director of a major university microbiology department in Germany is an ID creationist advocate. These people (in both the US and beyond) push an ideology that says you don't have to actually know anything, collect any facts, or even construct a testable hypothesis in order to make claims comparable to the rigorous process used to develope scientific hypotheses or theories. Whatever you want to believe is just as valid as a scientific theory.
It is an attractive feel good proposition. It allows people to remain completely ignorant yet exaggerate their knowledge way beyond their competence while simultaneously demonizing those who actually struggle to become scientists as "just people with a different opinions" or "elitists". As to the other part of your questions about international opinion, there is almost as much political and historical ignorance as there is scientific ignorance. Couple that with a completely disfunctional news media in the US and your average person who is not actively interested in the world beyond their kitchen table is likely unaware of international opinion.
Having said all this, the european scientific model is also poor for the most part in my experience. It is so fragmented and caters to local or national interests that the best and brightest of Europe often go to the better funded and more dynamic research institutes in the US. Ask anyone working in science whether it is easier to get a professorship or industry research job (much less startup a company) in Europe or the US and I am willing to bet they will say the US. So while the general US public is astoundingly poorly informed, the "elite" in research are top notch. Like everything in the US, the differences are extreme between the haves and have nots.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 132 (329243)
07-06-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Mammuthus
07-06-2006 7:47 AM


Re: Americans
In fact, a not insignificant number of Americans could not find Norway on a map much less have any clue regarding international opinion.
Heck they can't even list all the provinces in Canada or the states in Mexico, our two border neighbors. Or even know how many there are. Ask them where Puerto Rico is and wait.
The only reason they know about Cuba is because it is an evil communist totalitarian state that wants to take over South America ....
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 132 (329245)
07-06-2006 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
... comment from Dawkins, reassuring us all (europeans) that "ID theory DO NOT have support in the scientific america. It ONLY has support among the part of the population that dont know anything"... The next cut was of course directly over to Mr Bush talking warmly about ID.
ROFLOL.
My original post was probably a bit harsh on the americans.
Not when we have a president so badly informed on science that he supports ID. Not when people voting for him clearly had the facts wrong.
Welcome to the fray.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 132 (329256)
07-06-2006 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
07-06-2006 7:46 AM


Re: Americans
quote:
Appearances can be deceptive. Very often they are designed to be.
Yeah, maybe.
Or, maybe he's just an idiot with very good handlers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 07-06-2006 7:46 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 132 (329258)
07-06-2006 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by nator
07-06-2006 8:56 AM


Re: Americans
More likely. The Prez office is occupied, I suspect, more by a figurehead than Most Powerful Man on Earth.
Bush's numbskullary seems genuine enough to me.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 132 (329278)
07-06-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
We all know that the majority of your population still have the ability to steer away from this nonsence.
What do you know that we don't?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 132 (329284)
07-06-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
07-06-2006 7:18 AM


Re: Americans
Twice.
Once.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 07-06-2006 7:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 14 of 132 (329295)
07-06-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hauk
07-06-2006 7:04 AM


Re: Americans
Well, the media SHOULD be willing to make fun of it. It is far far too prevelant. The efforts to introduce I.D. and to cut out the teaching of evolution in schools is too well funded by the religious reight.
There is , fortunatly, efforts to oppose them. They are a lot less successful in the BIble belt, but at lesat for now, the teaching of 'I.D.' is pretty much a non-issue (Thanks to the Dover trial).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 132 (329304)
07-06-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dan Carroll
07-06-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Americans
quote:
Once.
Oh yeah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-06-2006 10:03 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
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