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Author Topic:   When You Ride Alone You Ride with Bin Laden: What the Government Should be Telling Us
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 16 of 20 (328963)
07-05-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-05-2006 11:59 AM


The energy crisis is a classic example of "market failure". Everyone has an incentive for using energy, there are very few incentives (except cost) for saving energy. And right now for most people in the U.S. the costs of energy are not a disincentive to using it because energy is still relatively cheap. And I am including not just the cost of running a car but also the cost of producing a head of lettuce from California and shipping it to New York. It the cost of the head of lettuce included the ACTUAL cost of producing and shipping the head of lettuce (reduced air quality, treating increased cases of asthma, loss of topsoil, global warming, etc.), then maybe people in New York would quit buying California lettuce and instead buy New York lettuce (or buy kale instead) that was produced in a more sustainable way. But since the cost of a head of California lettuce does not include all of the actual costs we have a case of market failure. The same is true for a gallon of gasoline, a BTU of natural gas, a kw of electricity. Until we figure out a way to make the market capture these costs we will not have enough incentives to reduce fossil fuel consumption to make a difference in global warming. It has to be considered as a SYSTEM, not piece by piece. All uses of fossil fuel need to be targeted, not just the biggest uses. The only way to do that is to reflect the actual cost of the fossil fuels in the prices of everything we
buy.
On edit: The reason I say that all uses and not just the biggest uses have to be targeted is that if we find a way to save a whole lot of oil used to generate electricity (for example by going to nuclear)- that will just make diesel fuel and gasoline cheaper - so people will continue to buy SUVs and drive them more miles - there is no incentive to conserve.
Edited by deerbreh, : Clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 20 (328969)
07-05-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-05-2006 11:59 AM


True that saving energy is saving energy, but it seems to me that if automobile use is only, say, 5-10% of the total oil consumption in this country, the citizen's sacrifice of cars kind of loses its compelling value.
67% of the US's oil consumption is used in transportation.
Source.
You can stack it up against uses in other industries here.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 11:59 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 18 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 1:43 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 20 (328976)
07-05-2006 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dan Carroll
07-05-2006 1:12 PM


It would help if you'd put up the relevant points from the sites. "Transportation" meaning what, the family car or is every other kind of transportation included from buses to planes to big rigs hauling produce and everything else across the country?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-05-2006 1:12 PM Dan Carroll has replied

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 20 (328984)
07-05-2006 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
07-05-2006 1:43 PM


You're right; that wasn't specific enough. "Transportation", in this context, excludes planes and big rigs, (which use jet fuel and diesel fuel, not common gasoline,) but does include trucks and buses. I'm having some difficulty getting specific numbers on residential cars versus trucks and buses, but you can probably get a guesstimate based on the vastly greater number of cars on the road than trucks and buses.
For more specifics, this report will show demand by specific products. (ie, car gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, etc.)

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 07-05-2006 1:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 20 (329017)
07-05-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by deerbreh
07-05-2006 12:39 PM


One problem
One problem is that IF these costs get reflected in consumer goods, it will cause the big grocers (who employ American workers like me) to be forced to cut labor costs and I will be working for $9.00 an hour struggling to survive while having to pay those big costs!
When it comes to Union wages, I become an "arrogant liberal" myself!
Its not fair for the American consumer to be squeezing money out of the Corporations just to save the planet and allow them to become wealthier....because the corporations then squeeze the American labor union worker like myself!
(A bit off topic, though....sorry, everyone...this is about Bill Mahrer, the nice liberal who would support my union!

This message is a reply to:
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