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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 281 of 300 (328240)
07-02-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Buzsaw
07-02-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Jar On Salvation
Most of those are but cherrypicking buz, quote mining and taken out of context. Let me try yet again to explain my belief.
I read those in context, and within the context of the rest of the Bible. IMHO the Bible, reason, logic and my whole idea of GOD says that there is no need to believe in, know, acknowledge or even believe in GOD to be saved.
GOD will judge us on what we do in life.
AbE:
Buz, that really is a big difference in our respective points of view but we have little time remaining. If you would like to discuss it in greater deatail, maybe a thread just on that would be a good idea.
Edited by jar, : add suggestion for new thread

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Buzsaw, posted 07-02-2006 9:40 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 07-02-2006 11:58 AM jar has replied
 Message 285 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 5:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 300 (328269)
07-02-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Buzsaw
07-02-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Jar On Salvation
Okay, so you don't want to discuss it. That's fine with me as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Buzsaw, posted 07-02-2006 11:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 300 (328328)
07-02-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by GDR
07-02-2006 5:01 PM


Re: Jar On Salvation
I still kinda wondering if we agree or not, or if I'm just nit-picking.
Only you can judge that.
If I take the above quote literally then it means that if I spend 10 hours a week doing volunteer work for others and donate 15% of my income to charity I'm more likely to wind up with salvation than someone who spends 5 hours a week and donates 8%. What is the cut-off? (3.7 hours and 6.27% maybe)
I don't think I have ever said that there is some abstract standard or that people will be judged in comparison to what others do either. Instead each person is judged inividually based on their own efforts and capabilities.
Salvation is not something you earn IMHO but rather a given. You do not earn points. Instead, as I have said, you are expected to try to do what is right, not do what is wrong and when you slip, acknowledge that and try to do better in the future.
I think that we can also safely assume that some people perform good works because they like being told what wonderful people they are, while others serve anonymously. Are their deeds judged equally? I would just contend that we are judged on the condition of our heart, and not our deeds or our understanding of doctrine.
Again, I don't think that salvation is something earned. I think that is a given. Your judgement though will be before a Judge with Absolute Knowledge, not just of what you did or why you did it. People seem to be concentrating only on those good things a person might do but that is only a small part of life, one piece of a complex combination of good deeds, neutral deeds, bad deeds, opportunity, timing, motivation, capabilities, and all of those factors will be known to GOD.
One other point is that often the discussion seems to turn to charity or the poor. Sure, charity, the sick and poor, those less fortunate than ourselves are a fact of life. But I don't think that GOD says "Take care of the poor!" Instead, we are commanded to try to love others as we love ourselves. Soup kitchens are fine, but helping the person behind you in line at the check out counter is too, or kneeling down when you talk to kids so you are at their level, or saying high to someone or a simple smile.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 5:01 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 300 (328335)
07-02-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by GDR
07-02-2006 6:04 PM


Re: Jar On Salvation
Are you sure that all you attributed to me is actually stuff that I said?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 6:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 6:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 300 (328338)
07-02-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by GDR
07-02-2006 6:51 PM


Re: Jar On Salvation
What I was questioning was this:
When I was a Christian I felt that it was because I loved Jesus that good deeds flowed automatically, doing good was not something I had to think about, it was just the way things were.
I don't think I said that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 6:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 07-02-2006 7:08 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 299 of 300 (328514)
07-03-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by iano
07-03-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Jar On Salvation
iano writes:
how does one conclude that the "sheep and the goats" (invoked as some kind of proof text) is a causal one (ie: a sheep is declared a sheep because of their good works) and not a consequential one (they did good works because they are sheep)?
There are several very definite indicators.
The story first says that ALL the world was gathered. There is no mention that there was some subdivision of peoples, but that all nations were gathered.
The story then goes on to select the sheep and goats. The sheep react in a very specific manner. They are surprised, they dispute the decision, asking "When have we ever done anything for you?"
The goats too are surprised, and they too dispute the decision, asking "When have we ever NOT done something for you?"
The message, at least for me, is pretty clear.
The sheep just did what is right, not for GOD or for Jesus but only because it was the right thing to do. The goats though are surprised because they believed they were followers, that they NEVER failed to do for GOD.
Jesus goes on to make it even clearer. He does not say that what was done was because of Him, but rather that GOD accepted the acts as being for Him, as done for Him without the individual even realising that what was done was for GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by iano, posted 07-03-2006 10:49 AM iano has not replied

  
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