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Author Topic:   Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 300 (328003)
07-01-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by ramoss
07-01-2006 12:29 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
It appears to be that trying to claim that the purpose is objective by defintion is not a very convincing arguement at all. It is entirely subjective.
Think in terms of formal purpose, Ramoss. The formal purpose of a hammer is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, which we can label as "subjective" (knocking someone in the head with it, for example)but that would not be its formal purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2006 12:29 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 1:56 PM robinrohan has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 287 of 300 (328015)
07-01-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 12:53 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Think in terms of formal purpose, Ramoss. The formal purpose of a hammer is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, which we can label as "subjective" (knocking someone in the head with it, for example)but that would not be its formal purpose.
Robin,
I'm still having trouble seeing the connection of formal purpose being implying, entailing, whatever "objectivity".
I want to drive nails and tire of whacking them with a rock which takes a long time. Using a combination of a lever (the handle) attached to a hard weighted shaped head I discover that nails go in faster with less effort on my part. I'm satisfied with my tools. It's an extension of my arm that multiplies the force and adds a capability that flesh and bone doesn't have vis a vis driving nails, or breaking head, eggs, rocks, etc.
What is objective about this? My purpose is subjective. I want to build a house, or fence and needed something to better drive the nails with. Let's say a hammer escapes from an astronauts hand and somehow is picked up floating in space by an alien would they know what it was?
It seems like the purpose of the hammer is as subjective as anything else I intend. I would say meaning is subjective. The objective lacks meaning. It can be measured and described but what is the meaning of a proton? Of a star?
If you ask "What is the meaning of my life". You are making your life an object, or making your self an object. You seem to being saying that if God exists and created me than I am an object for God. But what about my subjectivity? My sense of "I am" that I relate to the objects that I am aware of?
Hence, though Arach has offered alternate translations, God tells Moses that his name is "I am that I am". So it would appear God has no purpose. But if we are then do we have a purpose? Did God make us in his image? Or did we make God(s) in our image and then make up the story that He made us?
Who am I? Is the question. But who asks the question is always subject regarding a wide range of possible objects. What if we are the source of meaning? Can the source of meaning have meaning? Perhaps to be meaningless is To Be?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 12:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 2:10 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:14 PM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 288 of 300 (328016)
07-01-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by lfen
07-01-2006 1:56 PM


possibly a useful distinction?
What is objective about this? My purpose is subjective. I want to build a house, or fence and needed something to better drive the nails with. Let's say a hammer escapes from an astronauts hand and somehow is picked up floating in space by an alien would they know what it was?
Maybe this will help. Maybe it's a semantic problem with different uses of the word "purpose." "Purpose" in the sense of desire, the desire to accomplish a "purpose," is subjective, but the purpose of an object or created thing, what it was made for, is objective.
Your wanting to build a house is your subjective purpose or desire. But the actual building of the house is objective -- what the work of building aims to accomplish, what-it-is-for.
The hammer has an objective purpose, what-it-is-for, whether or not an alien can figure out what that objective purpose is and decides to use it for some other subjective purpose of its own, like build an altar to it to worship it perhaps.
One's wanting a tool to drive nails with, that works better than a rock, would be a subjective purpose or desire, but the finished created tool's purpose, what-it-is-made-for, is objective.
God's wanting to create a being in his own image could maybe be said to be God's subjective purpose, but the purpose of the being he creates in his image is objective, built into the created being -- what-it-was-made-for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 1:56 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by nwr, posted 07-01-2006 3:12 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 300 (328017)
07-01-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by lfen
07-01-2006 1:56 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
I'm still having trouble seeing the connection of formal purpose being implying, entailing, whatever "objectivity".
You have to look at it from the point of view of the hammer. If the hammer were conscious, it would be aware that its purpose in life was to drive nails. This is what it was designed by its Maker to do. So from the point of view of the hammer, the purpose is objective.
Humans, assuming no God, have no formal purpose.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 1:56 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 2:21 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 294 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 4:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 290 of 300 (328021)
07-01-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Yes, that says it. It's about point of view.
It's from the point of view of the hammer that it has an objective purpose. From the point of view of the creator of the hammer, the purpose to create it could be called subjective. Also it might be used for somebody's subjective purpose, from that person's point of view.
Same with God's creation of human beings in his own image. That would be his subjective purpose, but from our point of view, created with this image of God in us, it's our objective purpose.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:14 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:32 PM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 300 (328025)
07-01-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
07-01-2006 2:21 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
I THINK that's right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 2:21 PM Faith has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 292 of 300 (328034)
07-01-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
07-01-2006 2:10 PM


Re: possibly a useful distinction?
Your wanting to build a house is your subjective purpose or desire. But the actual building of the house is objective -- what the work of building aims to accomplish, what-it-is-for.
The people doing the actual building of the house are doing it for the purpose of earning income in their trade as builders. The builders will measure their success by how well it matches the architects specification, regardless of whether it is suitable as a domicile.
Even if you look to the builder's purpose, you still see subjectivity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 2:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 3:55 PM nwr has replied
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 6:00 PM nwr has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 300 (328043)
07-01-2006 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by nwr
07-01-2006 3:12 PM


Re: possibly a useful distinction?
Even if you look to the builder's purpose, you still see subjectivity.
You have to look at it from the point of view of the house.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by nwr, posted 07-01-2006 3:12 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by nwr, posted 07-01-2006 4:40 PM robinrohan has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 294 of 300 (328047)
07-01-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
If the hammer were conscious, it would be aware that its purpose in life was to drive nails. This is what it was designed by its Maker to do. So from the point of view of the hammer, the purpose is objective.
Okay assuming a conscious hammer. It's driving nails and feeling good as it's purpose is being fulfilled. Lunch break and designer builder sits down and discovers walnuts in his lunch. Wack! the hammer is now serving another purpose, that of cracking walnut shells for its maker to get at the walnut inside the shell to eat. Does the hammer feel unfulfilled or not? It's no longer functioning to meet it's designed purpose.
It sounds to me like objective means being used by something outside and subjecive means not being used by an external agent for a purpose. Could subjective mean self directed and objective mean other directed?
Why is self direction (if it exists but I'll leave that alone knowing that that bogs down for you) meaningless and other direction meaningful? Must meaning always be bestowed by something outside oneself?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:14 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM lfen has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 300 (328049)
07-01-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by lfen
07-01-2006 4:25 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Okay assuming a conscious hammer. It's driving nails and feeling good as it's purpose is being fulfilled. Lunch break and designer builder sits down and discovers walnuts in his lunch. Wack! the hammer is now serving another purpose, that of cracking walnut shells for its maker to get at the walnut inside the shell to eat. Does the hammer feel unfulfilled or not? It's no longer functioning to meet it's designed purpose.
Ifen, I love your comments. You crack me up.
It sounds to me like objective means being used by something outside and subjecive means not being used by an external agent for a purpose. Could subjective mean self directed and objective mean other directed?
Yes, I think so.
Why is self direction (if it exists but I'll leave that alone knowing that that bogs down for you) meaningless and other direction meaningful? Must meaning always be bestowed by something outside oneself?
Yes, that's the definition of "objective." The law of gravity is something that we did not think up. We discovered it. It's outside our intentions and our minds. It would be true whether we existed or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 4:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 4:45 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 298 by lfen, posted 07-01-2006 4:52 PM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 296 of 300 (328051)
07-01-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 3:55 PM


Re: possibly a useful distinction?
Even if you look to the builder's purpose, you still see subjectivity.
You have to look at it from the point of view of the house.
The house has no point of view.
The people living in the house may have a point of view;
the cockroaches living there might have a different point of view;
the realtor, who sold them the house might have yet another point of view;
the mortgage holder might have another point of view;
The house, itself, has no point of view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 3:55 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 5:39 PM nwr has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 297 of 300 (328053)
07-01-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Okay, but I want you to explain to me why if I create meaning my life is meaningless? Why can't I be the source? Why do I have to be sourced?
To do a meta reframing: Why can't the meaning of my life be to create meaning?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM robinrohan has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 298 of 300 (328055)
07-01-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
The law of gravity is something that we did not think up. We discovered it. It's outside our intentions and our minds. It would be true whether we existed or not.
Would you agree to this fine tuning of the language of your statement?
The phenomena that we describe using the law of gravity is something we did not think up. We created models that would describe the effects of it's functioning. Aristotle's model was badly flawed. Newton's model works very well for us, and Einstein's model appears to be more accurate than Newton's over the extremes.
The phenomena described by gravity is independent of our existence.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 300 (328062)
07-01-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by nwr
07-01-2006 4:40 PM


Re: possibly a useful distinction?
The house, itself, has no point of view.
It's an analogy, NWR. House=human beings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by nwr, posted 07-01-2006 4:40 PM nwr has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 300 (328065)
07-01-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by nwr
07-01-2006 3:12 PM


Re: possibly a useful distinction?
Your wanting to build a house is your subjective purpose or desire. But the actual building of the house is objective -- what the work of building aims to accomplish, what-it-is-for.
The people doing the actual building of the house are doing it for the purpose of earning income in their trade as builders. The builders will measure their success by how well it matches the architects specification, regardless of whether it is suitable as a domicile.
Even if you look to the builder's purpose, you still see subjectivity.
The building example was the most difficult to express, so naturally you picked it out of the five or six examples I gave. But it still holds up. Instead of a created object, in this example we have work that is being done for an objective purpose.
You can always find subjective motives where "purpose" is about somebody's motives or desires. I was distinguishing between those and the object of those motives, the created thing. The point is that the purpose itself, the object of the desire, the created object, the hammer, or the human being in the case of a Creator God, or in this case the building project itself, the work itself -- from ITS point of view as it were -- we know it can't have a point of view, you put yourself in its position to get the point -- THAT has an objective purpose, which I defined as "what it was made for."
So, what the building project is being done for -- that is its objective purpose, the objective purpose of the activity -- to get this house built. The subjective purposes of those engaged in the building are another meaning of "purpose."
I think this distinction holds up and makes the point.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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