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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 170 of 300 (327138)
06-28-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
06-28-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
What makes you think it is not a command?
Because you say that the atheist is fulfilling this 'command' passively, the atheist is unaware of this command.
If I command you to do something that you don't know about, and you do it, how can I possibly claim that you followed my command?
Did you know that I commanded you to reply to this message before 02.00pm?
In what way doesn't it fit?
The atheist doesn't know about the command to love God, but you are saying they fulfill it anyway, it doesn't make sense.
And far from being some passive act, it is a love totally built on doing.
How can it not be a passive participation if you don't know about the command to love God?
YOU Are told what to do, do right and try not to do wrong.
Yes, and according to you we are also charged to love God, I don;t believe in God, I am unaware of this command, yet I fulfill it?
Also, believing what is right or wrong can be very different depending on your faith.
GOD doesn't care about singing or praising or folk shout Her name.
Tell the Israelites that.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 8:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 11:59 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 171 of 300 (327141)
06-28-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-25-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Why couldn't they ALL be correct?
They could well all be correct, but that particular faith wouldn't be called Christianity. Christianity is exclusivist.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:13 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 172 of 300 (327145)
06-28-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
06-27-2006 10:53 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I don't hate anything with a passion, but I do think Christianity is absurd, but then again I think most religions are absurd. Most of my comments about Jesus and Christianity should be taken with a pinch of salt.
With that said, I do think the members mentioned are far too liberal with the text, they seem a bit too keen on making God into a fluffy old man who loves everyone, even those who reject His son. I do not see any scriptural evidence to support this. I also do not see any gratitude for the sacrifice Jesus made, in fact, at least one 'Christian' doesn't even think Jesus had to exist!
I also do not see the problem of Sin being addressed, I do not see the commandments being followed either, and I see St. paul's teachings being almost completely ignored.
It is a nice cosy wee faith that is being described, but it isn't Christianity.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 10:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 11:29 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM Brian has replied
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 11:10 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 198 of 300 (327387)
06-29-2006 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:48 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
No but it sure sounds like being nice to others is important.
Of course it is, but it isn't the sole requirement for claiming to be a Christian. Being nice to each other is a teaching found in many faith's but Christianity doesn't promote this as a pass into heaven. It is only one small requirement.
You should think about why God was incarnate in Jesus the Christ and why Jesus had to die then say "let's be nice to everyone and Jesus will save us". Well, frankly, that is bollocks and makes a mockery of Christ's sacrifice. If we could all be saved by being nice to each other then Jesus' sacrifice was a complete waste of time.
So, sure being nice ot each other is important, but it is not the only requirement.
Mark 29:29-31
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
How can I love God with all my heart, soul and mind when I do not believe in God? Also, I think that the God of the Bible is quite an evil literary creature, therefore my obeying (passively) God's command to love my neighbour as myself is not enough to get me saved.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:48 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 6:18 AM Brian has replied
 Message 277 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2006 9:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 200 of 300 (327404)
06-29-2006 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is the height of arrogance for one who isn't willing to practice a religion to tell others how they are doing it wrong.
And it is the height of ignorance to put an established label onto something that does not resemble it. It looks as if the “be nice and be saved” brigade haven’t heard of the trade descriptions act.
You have created a cartoon Christianity in your mind and decided no one is living up to it.
Weird, but the only one following the biblical texts here is the atheist and equally weird is the fact that the atheist is getting it in the neck from the guys who mutilate Jesus teachings because they find them too difficult to live up to.
My cartoon Christianity is based on what the Gospel teaches, and not some eclectic wishful thinking.
I am not the one ignoring major biblical teachings because they don’t happen to fit into what I want Christianity to be.
Try reading the Bible as a whole, the Old and New testaments, and then have a rethink about the claptrap you are hoping is true.
For example, how do the people who worship before statues of Shiva, Vishnu, or Brahman get saved by Jesus when the Father states that:
you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them
Also, keep in mind that
Exodus 43:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD (Yahweh), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
The Bible tells us that God is jealous, but if some man comes up with an idea that ignores this fact, and it fits in with what you wish Christianity to be, you will take that man’s word over the Bible.
Maybe many ”Christians’ really are not that different from atheists.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by MangyTiger, posted 06-29-2006 3:34 PM Brian has replied
 Message 278 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2006 9:43 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 202 of 300 (327409)
06-29-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by iano
06-29-2006 6:18 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
As an aside: it should be mentioned that loving God with all heart, soul and mind is impossible
I would imagine that, although impossible, points will still be given for effort?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 6:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 7:45 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 248 of 300 (327817)
06-30-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
06-28-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
I believe that GOD reaches evry heart, even those who are unaware of Her.
Wonderful, but I believe that satan reaches every heart by pretending to be God, so it must be true.
If I did respond in your time frame, even if unaware of it, I will have fulfilled your desires.
Well actually it doesn’t. You see I created you with free will so that you would follow me by choice. I am not the type of God to resort to subterfuge to fulfil my desires.
I didn’t realise that you didn’t believe in free will.
All that GOD wants is for folk to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.
But I do try to do this, I just don’t need the promise of a reward as an incentive.
Let me ask you this Jim. Would you still be a nice person if you were not a ”Christian’?
Perhaps not yet, but maybe one day you will understand.
I already understand. You wish to accept the bits of the Bible that support your particular stance, but ignore the core teachings of Christianity.
Because loving GOD is an action, not words or beliefs or acknowledgement. It is the results that count, what you do, not why you do it.
Oh I see. So because I treat others as I would like to be treated that makes me a Christian?
Am I a Christian ?
If you try to do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, then yes, you do fulfill the commandment.
Well, actually you don’t. The commandment instructs the individual to Love God with all their heart, strength, mind and soul. The way you put it you make this commandment redundant.
You say love God and be nice to everyone and you are saved, and then you say that if you love everyone then you love God anyway so the first commandment of yours is completely pointless, you are as well being an atheist. Why would God put the burden of being a Christian on to people when it is unnecessary?
When you are judged (I know you don't believe you will be judged but I do believe you will be judged, it is a statement of belief you know), you will be judged based on your behavior.
So, you won’t be judged on whether you love God? Then your first criteria is just crazy.
You did say Love god [b] AND{/b love others as you love yourself.
There are TWO commands according to you, Love God AND love others as you love yourself, but your claim negates the first command.
Have you really thought this through mate?
If during your life you really did try to do what is right, tried not to do what is wrong, were sorry when you failed and tried to do better in the future, then GOD will know it.
Yes, but you are not following the COMMAND to love God.
And yes, what is right may at times depend on ones Faith. But that is but one of the variables. Deciding what is right and wrong will always be a difficult decision make with insufficient information, without completely considering all the factors and within the limitations all humans face. GOD knows that. He does not expect perfection.
I would say that claiming your incarnation as a human is a crock of sh*t is a teensy bit less than God expects.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 11:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-30-2006 5:12 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 249 of 300 (327818)
06-30-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
06-30-2006 3:26 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
My reading of this is that it is talking of death in the life to come, which means hell, which means separation from God.
Do you believe that we are born sin free?
Brian.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 3:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 7:51 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 257 of 300 (327931)
07-01-2006 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by GDR
06-30-2006 7:51 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
In Religious Studies there is a concept known as the 'Human Condition', it essentially means that any idea about the condition of one human must apply to all humans. For example, in Buddhism, the human conditon is one of suffering, all humans suffer, there are no exceptions.
In Christianity the human condition is that being born into sin. You quoted Saint Paul earlier, and he certainly subscribes to this concept.
So, if we are all born into a sinful condition, what is the cure?
Brian.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 7:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by GDR, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 258 of 300 (327933)
07-01-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
06-30-2006 5:12 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Brian, I am disappointed in you.
Now that you have broke my heart, could you answer the questions?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-30-2006 5:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:23 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 260 of 300 (327943)
07-01-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by MangyTiger
06-29-2006 3:34 PM


Commandments for all
Couldn't you argue that this - actually all the commandments! - are actually directed specifically at the Jews.
I think you could argue this, but the New Testament does specify that the commandments are for everyone who wishes to follow Christ.
For example, in 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Feeling comfortable in following the commandments is an internal feeling of unity with Christ.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
We can go into this subject in more detail if you wish, but think about the commandments and why gentiles should be exempt. If it is only Jews who are to keep the commandments, does that mean it is okay for non-Jews to murder, steal, commit adultery and other commands?
If this is a dumbass question sorry for wasting your time
There's no such thing as a dumbass question mate, you should see me on the science threads!
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by MangyTiger, posted 06-29-2006 3:34 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 261 of 300 (327945)
07-01-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
07-01-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Okay, I'll take this very slowly.
Do you agree that if a person loves their neighbour as they love themselves that they automatically love God?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:40 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 263 of 300 (327952)
07-01-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
07-01-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Would you then agree that the command to love God is redundant, since it is automatically satisfied by following the second command?
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:07 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 266 of 300 (327959)
07-01-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
07-01-2006 10:07 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
No, I believe the second is a general instruction on how the first is done.
Now we have only got one command, to love God and here is how you do it!
Would you agree that salvation is possible with just ONE command, the love others as yourself gig, since the first 'command' is fulfilled automatically.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:56 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 271 of 300 (328072)
07-01-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
07-01-2006 10:56 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
I'm not sure what your point is.
The point is, if you do X and Y is a result of X then you do not need to do Y. Thus there is only one command.
It isn't difficult Jim. If you automatically love God when you love your neighbour and do what is right then the command to love god is redundant.
All you need say is love your neighbour as you love yourself, thus no command to love God is necessary.
Are you getting the logic here, or am I not explaining the logic properly?
Once we sort out the logic 'problem' we can move on to a few other problems in logic I believe your stance throws up.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 6:42 PM Brian has replied

  
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