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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 196 of 300 (327234)
06-28-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by nwr
06-28-2006 2:27 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
iano writes:
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
to which nwr replies:
quote:
I would suggest that you do something about the beam in your own eye, before you worry about the mote in jar's eye.
I wouldn't really say that.
This was a belief statement, nothing more. It was an attempt to put into words a very shortened, very abbreviated version of my religous journey.
All I can do is try to express what it is I believe, and where possible explain why I so believe. The case that I make for my beliefs will be the best I can. Some may find it convincing, others certainly will not. I try not to tell others what they should believe, that is up to them. I do though express what it is that I believe and I encourage others to do the same.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 2:27 PM nwr has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 197 of 300 (327235)
06-28-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-28-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It's like me caring if an ant believes in me
I do want to point out that I believe that the difference between GOD and man is many orders of magnitude greater than that between man and an ant, or even man and some single celled critter.
I very much believe in a GOD that is the creator of all that is, that was and that will be and that after I die I will be judged based on what I do during this short lifetime.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-28-2006 2:36 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 198 of 300 (327387)
06-29-2006 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:48 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
No but it sure sounds like being nice to others is important.
Of course it is, but it isn't the sole requirement for claiming to be a Christian. Being nice to each other is a teaching found in many faith's but Christianity doesn't promote this as a pass into heaven. It is only one small requirement.
You should think about why God was incarnate in Jesus the Christ and why Jesus had to die then say "let's be nice to everyone and Jesus will save us". Well, frankly, that is bollocks and makes a mockery of Christ's sacrifice. If we could all be saved by being nice to each other then Jesus' sacrifice was a complete waste of time.
So, sure being nice ot each other is important, but it is not the only requirement.
Mark 29:29-31
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
How can I love God with all my heart, soul and mind when I do not believe in God? Also, I think that the God of the Bible is quite an evil literary creature, therefore my obeying (passively) God's command to love my neighbour as myself is not enough to get me saved.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:48 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 6:18 AM Brian has replied
 Message 277 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2006 9:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 300 (327391)
06-29-2006 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by nwr
06-28-2006 2:27 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
iano writes:
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
I would suggest that you do something about the beam in your own eye, before you worry about the mote in jar's eye.
I'll take it that you agree there is a fatal dilemma in Jars Gospel. Fatal for Jar anyway.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 2:27 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by nwr, posted 06-29-2006 8:29 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 200 of 300 (327404)
06-29-2006 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is the height of arrogance for one who isn't willing to practice a religion to tell others how they are doing it wrong.
And it is the height of ignorance to put an established label onto something that does not resemble it. It looks as if the “be nice and be saved” brigade haven’t heard of the trade descriptions act.
You have created a cartoon Christianity in your mind and decided no one is living up to it.
Weird, but the only one following the biblical texts here is the atheist and equally weird is the fact that the atheist is getting it in the neck from the guys who mutilate Jesus teachings because they find them too difficult to live up to.
My cartoon Christianity is based on what the Gospel teaches, and not some eclectic wishful thinking.
I am not the one ignoring major biblical teachings because they don’t happen to fit into what I want Christianity to be.
Try reading the Bible as a whole, the Old and New testaments, and then have a rethink about the claptrap you are hoping is true.
For example, how do the people who worship before statues of Shiva, Vishnu, or Brahman get saved by Jesus when the Father states that:
you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them
Also, keep in mind that
Exodus 43:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD (Yahweh), whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
The Bible tells us that God is jealous, but if some man comes up with an idea that ignores this fact, and it fits in with what you wish Christianity to be, you will take that man’s word over the Bible.
Maybe many ”Christians’ really are not that different from atheists.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by MangyTiger, posted 06-29-2006 3:34 PM Brian has replied
 Message 278 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2006 9:43 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 201 of 300 (327406)
06-29-2006 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Brian
06-29-2006 3:36 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
How can I love God with all my heart, soul and mind when I do not believe in God?
As an aside: it should be mentioned that loving God with all heart, soul and mind is impossible (in this world at least) - even if you believe in him.
What chance the atheist indeed...
Edited by iano, : add qualifier

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 3:36 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 6:34 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 202 of 300 (327409)
06-29-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by iano
06-29-2006 6:18 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
As an aside: it should be mentioned that loving God with all heart, soul and mind is impossible
I would imagine that, although impossible, points will still be given for effort?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 6:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 7:45 AM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 203 of 300 (327417)
06-29-2006 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Brian
06-29-2006 6:34 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I would imagine that, although impossible, points will still be given for effort?
They say that if you play "Stairway to heaven" backwards you get a satanic message. Talk about stumbling over the stumbling stone: The suggestion in the title itself comes straight from satans rectum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 6:34 AM Brian has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 204 of 300 (327425)
06-29-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by iano
06-29-2006 4:49 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I'll take it that you agree there is a fatal dilemma in Jars Gospel. Fatal for Jar anyway.
Don't tell me what I agree to, at least not without first checking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 4:49 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 8:48 AM nwr has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 300 (327430)
06-29-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by nwr
06-29-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
You gave a non-answer to the technical issue we were discussing and I assumed. Sorry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by nwr, posted 06-29-2006 8:29 AM nwr has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 206 of 300 (327469)
06-29-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is a nice cosy wee faith that is being described, but it isn't Christianity.
Brian,
This raises a question for me as to the boundaries of the definition of Christianity. Primitive Christianity developed into the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches in the East and then changed by the Protestants and then later the Mormons, and now we have the Moonies and I don't know what all.
What critera do you propose to evaluate Christianity? I'm guessing something along the lines of the NT or Nicene creed but all of those groups would claim they follow those. So it would be a matter of interpretation? or do you have some other basis or approach?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:21 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 06-29-2006 12:23 PM lfen has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 300 (327487)
06-29-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by lfen
06-29-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I certainly cannot speak for Brian, nor would I try to but I can certainly tell you about my beliefs.
I fully accept the Nicene Creed and have often described myself as a Cradle Creedal Christian.
I also believe that the Bibly is a Holy Book, one filled with timeless truths about GOD, God's relationship with the Universe and all that is in it, Man's relationship with GOD and with all other living and non-living things.
I believe that the Great Sacrifice was not Jesus Death, Jesus was born as man and so would always have died, but rather that the Sacrifice is Jesus' life. For GOD to become man, frail, limited, born with the sure knowledge that He will die, even with the complete Faith of His resurrection, is an awsome thought.
I find the idea that Jesus crucifixion was some required payment for human sins just plain silly. Why would GOD become human just to get killed as some form of payment? It makes no sense. On the otherhand, the idea of GOD becoming human to teach us what His message really is, to show us by the most convincing possible demonstration that there is a life after death by dying and then coming back in person to talk and teach among his followers, that to me seems to make sense.
IMHO one depicts a somewhat insane Godlet, one that seems to think he has to pay himself for what he could freely do, while the other shows a GOD of great love and patience who is speaking to us in the form we can understand, by leading through example, teaching by example.
There are many here, across teh whole spectrum of belief or non-belief, that have said I am not a Christian. That's fine. Their judgement of that really is unimportant. There are others though who may hear what I say and for them, if what I say makes sense, then I have succeeded in explaining my beliefs.
And that is really all this thread is about. It is not a gospel, or sermon or exhortation. It is but an explanation of my beliefs.
Edited by jar, : add requisite spalling arrers

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 11:10 AM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 06-29-2006 1:59 PM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 208 of 300 (327509)
06-29-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jar
06-29-2006 12:23 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
jar writes:
I find the idea that Jesus crucifixion was some required payment for human sins just plain silly. Why would GOD become human just to get killed as some form of payment? It makes no sense. On the otherhand, the idea of GOD becoming human to teach us what His message really is, to show us by the most convincing possible demonstration that there is a life after death by dying and then coming back in persoan to talk and teach among his followers, that to me seems to make sense.
I found your whole post very interesting. I find in my own case that many Christians that I meet consider me a conservative Christian because of my views but Faith considers me a liberal Christian. I'm not suggesting that this makes my personal faith any more or less correct but it does indicate that it isn't particularly useful to try and label people as we are all a blend.
In regards to the part of your post that I quoted, our man CS Lewis wrote this in Mere Christianity.
CS Lewis writes:
Before I became a Christian I was under the impression that the first thing Christians had to believe was one particular theory as to what the point of this dying was. According to that theory God wanted to punish men for having deserted and joined the Great Rebel, but Christ volunteered to be punished instead, and so God let us off. Now, I admit that even this theory does not seem to me quite so immoral and so silly as it used to, but that is not the point I want to make.
What I came to see later on was that neither this nor any other is Christianity. The central Christian belief is that Christ's death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start. Theories as to how it did this are another matter. A good many different theories have been held as to how it works; what all Christians are agreed on is that it does work.
I will tell you what I think it is like. All sensible people know that if you are tired a hungry a meal will do you good. But the modern theory of nourishment - all about vitamins and proteins - is a different thing. People ate their dinners and felt better long before the theory of vitamins was ever heard of: and if the theory of vitamins is some day abandoned they will go on eating their dinners just the same. Theories about Christ's death are not Christianity: they are explanations about how it works.
Christians would not all agree as to how important those theories are. My own church - the Church of England - does not lay down any one of them as being right. The Church of Rome goes a bit further. But I think they will all agree that the thing itself is infinitely more important than any explanations that theologians have produced. I think they would probably admit that no explanation will ever be quite adequate to the reality. But as I said in the preface of this book, I am only a layman, and at this point we are getting into deep water. I can only tell you, for what it is worth, how I personally, look at the matter.
As you yourself have mentioned many times, Christianity is an issue of faith, but in my view a faith that is consistent with what I see in the world. (I know that there just might be some on this forum that would disagree with that last statement. )

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 06-29-2006 12:23 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 06-29-2006 2:22 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 300 (327512)
06-29-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by GDR
06-29-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I read a lot, maybe even all, of C.S. Lewis when I was in the process of becoming a Christian, and seeing quotes from him now surprises me. Even then I could identify a tinge of liberalness in his writings but now that I'm a solid Calvinist Protestant he sounds extremely liberal. I can't see any other meaning to the sacrifice of the crucifixion than to pay for our sins. It's what the entire Bible is about really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 06-29-2006 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by GDR, posted 06-29-2006 7:20 PM Faith has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 210 of 300 (327523)
06-29-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Brian
06-29-2006 6:03 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Hi Brian. I'm loath to comment on issues about the Bible since (as I endlessy say here ) I've only ever read two books of the Bible, but I did wonder about something.
For example, how do the people who worship before statues of Shiva, Vishnu, or Brahman get saved by Jesus when the Father states that:
you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them
Couldn't you argue that this - actually all the commandments! - are actually directed specifically at the Jews. According to Wiki:
Text of the commandments
The following is the text of the commonly accepted (by Christian and Jewish authorities) commandments as found in the book of Exodus 20:1-17, New Revised Standard Version of the Christian Bible. Because Jewish, Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic traditions divide the commandments in different fashions, they are presented below without itemization.
Then God spoke all these words: saying: (2)"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage:
”I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; (3) you shall have no other gods before me. (4) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, (6) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. (7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. (8) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. (9) For six days you shall labour and do all your work. (10) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work”you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. (11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (12) Honour your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. (13) You shall not murder. (14) You shall not commit adultery. (15) You shall not steal. (16) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. (17) You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Exodus 20:1-17
Surely the 'I am your God who saved you from slavery in Egypt' stuff is pretty unambiguous. Maybe it says somewhere in the New Testament that the following parts of the OT appy to you new-Jewish Christians?
If this is a dumbass question sorry for wasting your time

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 6:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 9:25 AM MangyTiger has not replied

  
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