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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 256 of 280 (327089)
06-28-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Larni
06-28-2006 8:26 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
A: Who I have grown up to become.
"I am who I am" - Rene Descartes modified to travel in an even tighter circle. Circular answers aren't answers. Deciding you need no answers means the question doesn't get asked. Thats one way of dealing with it I suppose
A: Because my parents gave birth to me. You could regress this back to the abiogenisis if you care but why?
And when you do you end up in mystery for abiogenesis is not an answer - its a wild guess. Again the question isn't asked.
A: My future is unknown except in vague terms
No answer - for the question is seen as irrelevant.
Answers to the BIG questions that man has asked: "The questions are irrelevant" Does the fact that so very many have disagreed with you and spent their lives in pursuit of answers not tickle your fancy at all?
Can you tell me where the Neanderthals went when they died?
Whats a Neandrathal? Is it human or not. If not, then it is an animal. I have no idea where animals go after they die
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 8:26 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 9:38 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 257 of 280 (327105)
06-28-2006 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by iano
06-28-2006 8:50 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Iano writes:
Deciding you need no answers means the question doesn't get asked.
That is not what I said. I am a vast collection of traits, beliefs, schemata, atoms, systems which we could reduce to the quantum level if we wanted to.
I am pointing to my self and saying that to correctly sum up my 'actuality' you need my 'actuality'. Trying to sum up a human being in words or concepts cannot be done. The amount of information needed to describe with 100% accuracy a human being is the same amount of information as is 'contained' within the very humnan being you are trying to describe.
If you are asking for an answer to the question "Who am I?" and require an answer in words you will always be frustrated as the information you require is in the collapse of my wave form, not in words.
Iano writes:
And when you do you end up in mystery for abiogenesis is not an answer - its a wild guess. Again the question isn't asked.
Sigh. Well to the nearest point in time, I am here because a sperm cell met an egg cell in my mothers womb. That answers your question.
Iano writes:
No answer - for the question is seen as irrelevant.
Not true. That my answer is not to your taste does not mean that I have answered the question.
Iano writes:
Does the fact that so very many have disagreed with you and spent their lives in pursuit of answers not tickle your fancy at all
Arguement to authority.
Iano writes:
Whats a Neandrathal? Is it human or not. If not, then it is an animal. I have no idea where animals go after they die
Homo neanderthalensis buried their dead with ritual and cermony: this has a strong implication that they had a concept of 'going somewhere' when you die. They cared for the sick and elderly. Skeletons have been found with healed bones that could not have occured without support (and the concepts of affection that brings). They hunted with tools and used complex techiques to bring down large prey such as mammoths.
They co existed with us in time. We could have looked into their eyes and seen ourselves. We both had langues so we could have talked to each other.
Their genus was Homo.
I hope that helps.
They could not have known about the xian god.
What happened to them when they died?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 8:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 9:57 AM Larni has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 258 of 280 (327111)
06-28-2006 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Larni
06-28-2006 9:38 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
I am a vast collection of traits, beliefs, schemata, atoms, systems which we could reduce to the quantum level if we wanted to.
'I am' concludes these things. Who is the 'I am' that concludes these things? A set of traits, beliefs, schemata concludes this about itself. Self-definition, self-verification, self-calibration , self-worth. Illusions.
Trying to sum up a human being in words or concepts cannot be done
Except when it references God. The answer to the question "Who am I" can only be found in one place thus. Would you agree?
Arguement to authority.
I'll remember that next time your psychology education is used as a mechanism of debate
What happened to them when they died?
I'll have to plump for your answering they were human seeing as you won't. Men and women.
They could not have known about the xian god.
Why not? The Christian God is the same as the OT God. Abraham believed God and was declared righteous (and thus saved). Mr and Mrs Neandrathal man, card carrying members of the human race could believe too. Like you don't need to read the Bible to be saved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 9:38 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 10:34 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 259 of 280 (327124)
06-28-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by iano
06-28-2006 9:57 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Iano writes:
Self-definition, self-verification, self-calibration , self-worth. Illusions.
Why are they illusions?
Iano writes:
Except when it references God. The answer to the question "Who am I" can only be found in one place thus. Would you agree?
Oh course I don't agree.
Larni writes:
Trying to sum up a human being in words or concepts cannot be done
This is my answer. If you don't like it, well hard luck.
Iano writes:
I'll remember that next time your psychology education is used as a mechanism of debate
I may be on thin ice but in this case I am correct.
Iano writes:
I'll have to plump for your answering they were human seeing as you won't. Men and women.
Sorry, they were in the same genus, but not the same species.
Homo sapiens neanderthalis were around from 230,000 BCE to 30,000 BCE and would have (at least in a temporal sense) co existed with Homo sapiens sapiens who started out at 137,000 BCE till present.
Mr and Mrs Neanderthal could not have any notion of the xian god because Homo sapiens sapiens as a species did not exist (to our best guess) untill H. Neanderthalis had been around for about 93,000 years.
Having absolutley no way of knowing the xian god, what would happen to them when they died?
By the way, this question could just as well include anyone who dies not having heard of the xian god, such as the native Amerindians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 9:57 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 10:44 AM Larni has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 260 of 280 (327127)
06-28-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Larni
06-28-2006 10:34 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Why are they illusions?
Because they have no moorings. A boat which anchors to itself is not a boat which is anchored (seeing as things have gotten decidely nautical this last few days)
Oh course I don't agree.
Why not. If who I am is defined by something outside me (and not a bunch of others who are as mooring-less as myself at the point of embarking on the good ship "Who am I?" then were is the problem?
Sorry, they were in the same genus, but not the same species.
Did they have a spirit given to them by God?
Having absolutley no way of knowing the xian god, what would happen to them when they died?
I am confused Larni. Why would they have no way of knowing God. The only way a person can know God is if God reveals himself to them. It matters not in which age that happened. God revealed himself to me - thats how I know him. I don't follow you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 10:34 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 11:04 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 261 of 280 (327134)
06-28-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by iano
06-28-2006 10:44 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Iano writes:
Because they have no moorings.
You seem to be going back to needing to have validation from on high. I for one feel no need for the validation or 'mooring'. I feel perfectly happy spinning in the wind.
Iano writes:
If who I am is defined by something outside me then were is the problem?
We are at the belief stage here and we have been here a few times already Any minute now the words 'belief' and 'knowing' will turn up. You will appeal to the highest court that you know and I will chant "all is belief" ad nauseum.
We've been down that road and I think it forks somewhere along the way. Lets not do it again.
Iano writes:
Why would they have no way of knowing God.
This is a bit of a kicker. They were around 93,000 years before your god made H. sapien sapien.
Now if you claim they are souless then your god condemed them from birth not to even have a chance of getting into heaven. If they are not souless then they must have gone somewhere.
Having no knowledge of the xian god (I assume this as they could not have read the bible and had knowledge of the Law- indead they had no written language) they would have went where?
Iano writes:
It matters not in which age that happened. God revealed himself to me - thats how I know him.
Hand waving?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 10:44 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 11:28 AM Larni has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 262 of 280 (327148)
06-28-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Larni
06-28-2006 11:04 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
I feel perfectly happy spinning in the wind.
Things which spin in the wind point to whereever the wind points them. They don't decide anything. They don't even know if they are happy - that too is spinning.
Lets not do it again.
Okay
Now if you claim they are souless then your god condemed them from birth not to even have a chance of getting into heaven. If they are not souless then they must have gone somewhere.
If they are soul-less then they are sinless. Condemnation is not the correct term to apply. You enter the realm of "what happens animals?". The answer to that is: I don't know. If soulful you enter the realm of man in which case apply the argument already given for man.
Having no knowledge of the xian god (I assume this as they could not have read the bible and had knowledge of the Law- indead they had no written language) they would have went where?
Could they hear? Adam heard.
Hand waving?
Not at all. Logic tells you that God has to reveal himself to man in order for man to know God exists or know anything about God. It happens to be the Christian perspective too.
Edited by iano, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Larni, posted 06-28-2006 11:04 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 3:25 PM iano has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 263 of 280 (327248)
06-28-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by iano
06-28-2006 11:28 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Logic tells you that God has to reveal himself to man in order for man to know God exists or know anything about God. It happens to be the Christian perspective too.
Logic? History of religions shows to me that humans have come up with explanations of many things. A very common explanatory device for events both large scale like volcanic eruptions or very personal like illness or recoving from an illness was that some unseen or barely scene spirit or spirits were responsible. The surmises about these spirits can get very complex as do the experiences of them.
That these experiences are functions of the human nervous system and thus the creation of the human brain is what seems logical to me.
Decades ago I was struck by something B.F. Skinner wrote about dreaming. I'll have to paraphrase. He said something like this: It took primitive man a long to time to realize that when he dreamed about a wolf no wolf was present. It's taken a long time since to realize that not even a representation of a wolf is present. He was saying that dreaming involved the behaviour of seeing a wolf, no representation of a wolf is stored in the brain in the way that a photo album stores photographs.
There doesn't have to be a god in order for people to believe or experience a God. There were, perhaps still are, people in England, Ireland, and elsewhere who claim to believe and even have seen fairies and little people. Would you claim that logic tells you that fairies and little people have to reveal themselves to man in order for man to know fairies and little people exist or know anything about fairies and little people?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 11:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 7:01 PM lfen has replied
 Message 267 by Larni, posted 06-29-2006 5:34 AM lfen has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 264 of 280 (327299)
06-28-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by lfen
06-28-2006 3:25 PM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
iano writes:
Logic tells you that God has to reveal himself to man in order for man to know God exists or know anything about God. It happens to be the Christian perspective too.
You dealt with a not-irrelevant subject matter in your post Lfen, but it changes what I said not at all. Man can believe in fairies, the IPU's and all the rest...
God (if he exists...a sop to you) will only be known to a person when he reveals himself.
That was all I was saying. One might (should they ponder it a bit) suppose that a meeting with someone/thing wonderful, who/which does not exist, will differ in hue from a meeting with someone who does, in fact, exist.
One would have to have experienced both in order to compare though, I suppose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 3:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 8:06 PM iano has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 265 of 280 (327323)
06-28-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by iano
06-28-2006 7:01 PM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
God (if he exists...a sop to you) will only be known to a person when he reveals himself.
That was all I was saying. One might (should they ponder it a bit) suppose that a meeting with someone/thing wonderful, who/which does not exist, will differ in hue from a meeting with someone who does, in fact, exist.
One would have to have experienced both in order to compare though, I suppose.
This becomes more complex when you figure in that we are dealing with the accounts of a good many people and not just Christian who have had the experience of meeting God. Or take as an example charismatic Christians who had some ecstatic experience brought about in a meeting where the excitement runs contagiously high. It's not like on meeting God you are handed a certificate validating the experience for any who would inquire.
But perhaps you had a broader meaning for the word reveal. Would a child learning about God in Sunday school be an example of God revealing himself to that child? I ask because the child might give some correct answers by the Christian perspective that God exists and God is all Good.
I seriously don't think "Logic tells you that God has to reveal himself to man in order for man to know God exists or know anything about God." I think most people have been told this and some people arrived at in a variety of others ways through imagination, dreams, hallucinations, philosophical deductions, etc.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 7:01 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 8:09 PM lfen has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 280 (327324)
06-28-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by lfen
06-28-2006 8:06 PM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
philosophical deductions
I prefer this method.

"Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 8:06 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 5:36 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 267 of 280 (327397)
06-29-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by lfen
06-28-2006 3:25 PM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Ifen writes:
There doesn't have to be a god in order for people to believe or experience a God.
A very, very good point Ifen. One that should always be born in mind (for us all).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 3:25 PM lfen has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 268 of 280 (327398)
06-29-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by robinrohan
06-28-2006 8:09 PM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
philosophical deductions
I prefer this method.
I thought you said you were looking for answers. Answers as I though you meant it are destinations. Philosopy never gives answers in that sense, it gives you places to park along whichever road you chose to travel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2006 8:09 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by MUTTY6969, posted 06-29-2006 6:40 AM iano has replied

  
MUTTY6969
Member (Idle past 6190 days)
Posts: 65
From: ARIZONA
Joined: 05-20-2006


Message 269 of 280 (327411)
06-29-2006 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by iano
06-29-2006 5:36 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
iano writes:
Philosopy never gives answers in that sense, it gives you places to park along whichever road you chose to travel.
Much the same as religion...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 5:36 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 7:52 AM MUTTY6969 has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 270 of 280 (327419)
06-29-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by MUTTY6969
06-29-2006 6:40 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
I suspect that Robin (at least) is aware that salvation by faith alone is the consistant message of the Bible. I doubt he would conlude the same about the shifting sands of philosophy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by MUTTY6969, posted 06-29-2006 6:40 AM MUTTY6969 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by ramoss, posted 06-29-2006 7:58 AM iano has replied

  
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