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Author Topic:   A question of numbers (one for the maths fans)
nwr
Member
Posts: 6411
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 211 of 215 (327008)
06-27-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by riVeRraT
06-27-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Mind full
My main question, is, does infinity exist.
That's the wrong question.
We invent mathematical entities. Thus we can invent infinity. The mathematical sense of "exist" is different from the physical sense of "exist". If we can invent a suitable concept of infinity that does not cause any inconsistencies in our mathematics, then we can say that infinity exists in the mathematical sense.

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 Message 210 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2006 10:32 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 212 of 215 (327039)
06-28-2006 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by riVeRraT
06-27-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Mind full
What's the point of converging numbers anyway, from a purely number point of view.
Remember Zeno? He proved that you can't cross a room. In fact he proved you couldn't move at all. Understand Zeno's paradox first. Everybody knew he was wrong but no one knew how to prove it until the calculus. I may be wrong about this but I don't know of any proofs before that.
Why can't a series of numbers just continue forever? Why can't it just get infinitly smaller, who cares, they are just numbers.
Well they can. There are all kinds of series and some are very weird.
Note that there are series, and then the sum of a series.
.999... is a number, it's not a series. We did at various points in the explication say it was equivalent to the sum of the series .9+.09+.009... which it is. It was a way of explaining why this is true: .999... = 1.
If you take some math classes, which I think would be fun, you will find math uses very precise definitions except where it can't. Like a point and a line, even number have to be understood but from there on you can precisely difine what you mean. Part of your confusions in this thread was because you confused terms. Once you get the terms sorted out it will be clearer.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2006 10:32 PM riVeRraT has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 213 of 215 (327044)
06-28-2006 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by riVeRraT
06-27-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Mind full
quote:
To me, if .999... can equal 1, then there is a limit to how many recurring 9's you can have
That's exactly wrong. 0.999... = 1 because there is no limit to the number of '9's after the decimal place. That is how it works.
For any finite number of '9's 1 - 0.999...9 = 0.000...1
For an infinite number of '9's 1 - 0.999... = 0.000...
Because it's infinite there's no point to stop and put a '1'.
'

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 214 of 215 (327079)
06-28-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by lfen
06-28-2006 2:25 AM


Re: Mind full
Part of your confusions in this thread was because you confused terms.
I don't think I really confused terms. I did not know of a lot of these things before this thread. Like my last post, I know I am speaking of many different things, but I am not confused about the terms, I think I got it.
I really did a lot of reading on this one, but it's kind of hard to learn calculus over the internet in a couple days. Like if you go to wikipedias definition of recurring decimals, the page is full of links to help define what it is. There is actually a similar discussion there as well.
I had some problems when studying it, as I didn't understand some of the symbols used in the equations. One symbol looked like a funny looking E, what does that mean?

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 Message 212 by lfen, posted 06-28-2006 2:25 AM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2006 8:49 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 215 of 215 (327088)
06-28-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by riVeRraT
06-28-2006 8:14 AM


Re: Mind full
quote:
One symbol looked like a funny looking E, what does that mean?
I think what you are referring to is a capital sigma (Greek).
(Mathematcs also uses a backwards 'E' for "there exists").
The sigma stands for "sum". In the wikipedia discussion there's an example with 'k = 0' below it and the 'infinity' symbol (like an '8' on it's side - above). What it means is "what you would get get if you worked out the formula for k = 0, k = 1, k = 2,... on to infinity and added all the results together".
Since you can't actually do that you have to use other mathematics to work out what the result would be, More precisely what you work out is the limit of the sum as k tends to infinity (i.e. where it's going as you add on the results for higher and higher values of k - but it usually won't reach that value if you stop at any finite number of results)

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