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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 121 of 300 (326529)
06-26-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
06-26-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Iano, in particular, seems to consider himself quite wretched.
Compare:
Paul in Romans:
"Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death"
Iano in EvC
"Oh wretched man that I was, who has delivered me from this body of death"
Don't let a mans struggle with sin fool you into missing the big picture. Life is rich when there are struggles to face. Not fun at times, granted. But rich.
Edited by iano, : saved to deliver

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:12 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 300 (326532)
06-26-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 4:48 PM


Re: Love others and self?
English is somewhat limited in that we have a word love that can have such broad and often contradictory meanings. In this case I think the term love refers to an inate, internal and brutal honesty about yourself and the will to actually do something based on the analysis. You need to look at your own weaknesses and strengths and actually work to strengthen where weak and temper where strong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 4:48 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:15 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 300 (326536)
06-26-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
06-25-2006 10:20 AM


Re: Love others and self?
I believe that to love yourself, you first have to know that you are not born with damned stamped on your forehead, that you are not condemned ...
Seems to me it's far from love to tell yourself lies to make yourself feel better in the face of a genuine danger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 10:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:17 PM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 300 (326537)
06-26-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by iano
06-26-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Don't let a mans struggle with sin fool you into missing the big picture. Life is rich when there are struggles to face. Not fun at times, granted. But rich.
In other words iano loves his sorry self. I don't have any problem loving myself either. My problem is in loving all those others. Many of them are not very lovable, for one thing, and for another thing, I only have so much love in me too pass around. I have to be frugal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:51 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 137 by lfen, posted 06-26-2006 6:00 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 300 (326541)
06-26-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
06-26-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
The way everyone loves him/herself ought to be pretty obvious. We all look for comfort and try to avoid pain, we feel miserable when our egos are hurt etc. Pretty ordinary obvious stuff I would think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 8:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 300 (326542)
06-26-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
06-26-2006 5:05 PM


Re: Love others and self?
In this case I think the term love refers to an inate, internal and brutal honesty about yourself and the will to actually do something based on the analysis. You need to look at your own weaknesses and strengths and actually work to strengthen where weak and temper where strong.
And we are supposed to "love" others like that? It doesn't sound very nice. I don't know if I want to go around being "brutally honest" with everyone.
Now if you define love as "good will," it makes more sense to me. We wish ourselves well; in the same way, we should wish others well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:18 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:23 PM robinrohan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 300 (326544)
06-26-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
06-26-2006 5:09 PM


Re: Love others and self?
Seems to me it's far from love to tell yourself lies to make yourself feel better in the face of a genuine danger.
It most certainly is. Why do you keep telling yourself the lie that you were born damned, that you are condemned? More to the point, why do you keep lying to others as well, particularly that YOU have some knowledge of how one gets saved when it is obvious from what you write that you are clueless?
I believe GOD's message is really very simple. Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. You know right from wrong, now go out and try to do right and try not to do wrong.
It really is that simple.
Why can't you get it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:19 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 300 (326545)
06-26-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Love others and self?
Now if you define love as "good will," it makes more sense to me. We wish ourselves well; in the same way, we should wish others well.
EXACTLY.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:15 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 300 (326547)
06-26-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
06-26-2006 5:17 PM


Re: Love others and self?
Why can't you get it?
I'm a realist. You've got some kind of elaborate denial of reality going on there. Going to bite you in the end. Can't see how that's loving yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 300 (326549)
06-26-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Love others and self?
And we are supposed to "love" others like that? It doesn't sound very nice. I don't know if I want to go around being "brutally honest" with everyone.
I don't think I ever said you should be brutally honest with everyone, but it is probably good to be brutally honest about everyone.
You asked me how one should love oneself, then in a typical fundie footdance changed the goalposts. It is trying.
Good will is certainly part of the equation, but only part. There are times when good will can be doing something that the other person might not see as all that good.
Life is not a setpiece. We move through life trying our best. We will always be working from insufficient and incomplete knowledge.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:15 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 300 (326550)
06-26-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
06-26-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Love others and self?
I'm a realist. You've got some kind of elaborate denial of reality going on there. Going to bite you in the end. Can't see how that's loving yourself.
Okay. No problem.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 300 (326553)
06-26-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
06-26-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Love others and self?
I don't think I ever said you should be brutally honest with everyone, but it is probably good to be brutally honest about everyone.
You asked me how one should love oneself, then in a typical fundie footdance changed the goalposts
I don't know about this fundie stuff, since I'm no fundie, but I thought the rule was that we were to love others as we love ourselves. I took that to mean that we are to love others in the same way that we love ourselves.
(Incidentally, the rule seems to me impossible to carry out).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:37 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 134 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:43 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 300 (326559)
06-26-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Love others and self?
(Incidentally, the rule seems to me impossible to carry out).
Good observation. Being "but flesh" it is beyond us.
But it's not impossible for Christ. Attaching ourselves to Him makes it possible to fulfill all His commands, at first by His own virtues imputed to us, and hopefully more and more in reality as we stick with Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:30 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 300 (326562)
06-26-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Love others and self?
I don't know about this fundie stuff, since I'm no fundie, but I thought the rule was that we were to love others as we love ourselves. I took that to mean that we are to love others in the same way that we love ourselves.
Again the vagries of the english language.
My understanding is that I am charged to love myself first. That includes trying to determine those areas where I am weak and to try to improve those, to determine my strengths and try to temper them. As I said, it does not mean being brutally honest with others, but it is a good idea to be brutally honest about others as well.
Once you work to get your house in order, look around to see what you can do for others. As I hav esaid hetre many times, it is not even the big things, but just those common little everyday things you can do. Help someone reach something on a high shelf, help them unload their shopping cart at the checkout line, let the lady with three kids in tow go ahead of you, even if it does mean your ice cream gets soft before you get it home.
(Incidentally, the rule seems to me impossible to carry out).
I have never said it is easy, it isn't. It is hard and it is work.
We are but humans and we will likely fail. That is why we will be judged individually on how well we tried. That is why we try to be honest with our selves and to realize when we do fail to do our best, to acknowledge that failure and to try to do better in the future.
That is why I posted the Confession way back in Message 11.
Most merciful God,we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
have mercy on us and forgive us;
that we may delight in your will,
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your Name. Amen.
It really is that simple though.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:30 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:50 PM jar has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 300 (326565)
06-26-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
06-26-2006 5:43 PM


Re: Love others and self?
My understanding is that I am charged to love myself first. That includes trying to determine those areas where I am weak and to try to improve those, to determine my strengths and try to temper them. As I said, it does not mean being brutally honest with others, but it is a good idea to be brutally honest about others as well.
Once you work to get your house in order, look around to see what you can do for others.
I don't see how you get all that out of the word "as."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 6:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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