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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 300 (326057)
06-25-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
06-25-2006 1:29 AM


Re: How much love?
If we are to love others as Christ loved us we have to remember that Christ died for us. Christ put everyone else ahead of himself.
I believe that far too much emphasis is placed by many Christians on Jesus Death and Christ dying for us.
Once GOD became Man in the form of Jesus, the fact that he would die was pretty much a given. The only other possibility would be some form of direct ascension while still a man like Enoch. That would not teach mankind anything about the truth of life after death, so if it was GOD's intent to teach mankind about resurrection, Jesus had to die.
When seen in that context I believe that your quote from John fits in with my interpretation, that we should emulate Jesus life, try to treat others as he would have treated them. This also ties in with the messages from Mark and Matthew, that what we will be judged on is what we do, how we behave towards and around others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 06-25-2006 1:29 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 2:04 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 300 (326065)
06-25-2006 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
06-25-2006 3:05 AM


Love others and self?
Faith writes:
That is obviously not a two-part command but a command based on a given, that we all love ourselves.
I believe that it is a two part command, and that not everyone loves themselves. In fact, I would say that in particular, most Christians and almost all Fundimentalist or Evangelical Christians definitely don't love themselves.
I believe that to love yourself, you first have to know that you are not born with damned stamped on your forehead, that you are not condemned, that you have been given the wondrous gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that we were also given the gift of critical thinking to use all the others.
The Knowledge of Good and Evil was a gift, but with that Great Gift came a charge and responsibility. We are expected to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong. That will be different in every single case, and we will always be dealing with inadequate and incomplete information, so we will often fail.
We have to try though, and it will be that effort, how sincerely we tried to do what is right, and if we later learn that what we did was NOT right, if we acknowledge and repent our misbehavior, and if we then try to do better in the future, GOD will understand.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 3:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 4:34 PM jar has replied
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:09 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 300 (326081)
06-25-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-21-2006 10:47 AM


Re: On what the Great Sacrifice was.
jar writes:
I do not see the crucifixion itself as some great payment for our sins. Afterall, there were at least two other people crucified the very same day and very same place as Jesus. In addition it would be an act of GOD paying Himself with Himself for something He was capable of doing even without payment.
The crucifixion is part of the story of Jesus' life, but I believe that He really was human during His time here with us before His death, and so He was going to die.
OK
Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day and is alive now? That He is as much aware of you (in fact, more so) than I am? IMHO, the emphasis on Jesus being alive today is important. Of course, you can simply say that you are talking to God, rather than Jesus, but to have been human makes the character that we are talking to that much more real and not mythical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 11:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 109 of 300 (326092)
06-25-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
06-25-2006 10:48 AM


Re: On what the Great Sacrifice was.
Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day and is alive now?
Yes and no.
I believe what is in the Nicene Creed. Jesus died, was buried, on the third day He rose from the dead, He ascended into heaven and sits on the right hand of the Father.
Alive is a human centric concept. GOD, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are not alive in the human sense. I do believe they are real, that they exist, but not alive as you or I are alive.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 06-25-2006 10:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 300 (326153)
06-25-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
06-20-2006 12:23 PM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Brian writes jar:
quote:
If you were a Christian, you’d be expressing the tenets of Christianity, but what you are expressing in no way resembles any extant denomination of Christianity.
You seem to feel this way simply because jar dares to say that his beliefs could be wrong, and you clearly imply - repeatedly - that because of this jar isn't a true Christian. I'm not a Christian at all so it doesn't matter much to me whether any of you are "true" Christians, but I know for a fact that you're wrong when you keep saying that some 1,500 or so denominations all agree with you on this.
The Episcopal church absolutely does not agree with you on this. It comes nowhere close. I was reared in that church, and we were taught at a very early age, in Sunday school, to realize that nothing about us humans is infallible, not even our beliefs. We were encouraged to question things with enthusiasm, that by doing so we were making the best use of the gifts God gave us.
I don't remember ever hearing anyone at church say that I should specifically question the existence of God, but they never said I shouldn't. I think the existence of God made perfect sense to them and they trusted that it probably would with me (ultimately it didn't, but isn't that the whole point?) - they had probably ruminated on a godless universe at some point themselves and, after some critical thought and prayer concluded that yes, in fact, God does exist. Why would they not afford me the same opportunity to question God myself and reach my own conclusion? And why would simply pondering such questions have to mean that one is not a true Christian?
Why would any religion discourage its followers from thinking? You're an obviously intelligent person, Brian, and I don't believe you're being entirely honest when you imply, through your line of questions, that such notions have never occurred to you, and that you've never given a moment's meditation to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 12:23 PM Brian has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 111 of 300 (326287)
06-26-2006 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
06-25-2006 9:59 AM


How much love?
jar writes:
When seen in that context I believe that your quote from John fits in with my interpretation, that we should emulate Jesus life, try to treat others as he would have treated them.
I agree with this atatement but this isn't the same as loving others as we love ourselves which you quoted earlier.
jar writes:
This also ties in with the messages from Mark and Matthew, that what we will be judged on is what we do, how we behave towards and around others.
It isn't what we do, IMHO, it is the condition of our heart. The Bible tells the story who gave all that she had, which was a couple of coins. Warren Buffet just gave 37 billion, I think it was, to charity. Does this make Buffet billions of times more righteous than the woman in the parable?
Compare someone who gives to charity because in their heart they desire the recognition of their peers, to someone else in the same financial circumstances who anonymously gives the same amount.
Compare someone who grows us in an abusive home with someone who grows up in a safe loving environment. If they love their neighbour equally are they judged equally?
I am repeating myself but I don't believe that we are judged by having the good things on one side of the scales and the bad on the other.
We are judged, as I said, on the condition of our heart with much being expected of those who have been given much.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 10:09 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 300 (326387)
06-26-2006 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by GDR
06-26-2006 2:04 AM


Re: How much love?
I am repeating myself but I don't believe that we are judged by having the good things on one side of the scales and the bad on the other.
Well let me try one more time because I do believe that is exactly how we will be judged and I think you do too.
You gave an example in your message along with a question.
quote:
The Bible tells the story who gave all that she had, which was a couple of coins. Warren Buffet just gave 37 billion, I think it was, to charity. Does this make Buffet billions of times more righteous than the woman in the parable?
My answer to that would be "No!"
But that is also NOT what you outlined above. That is not weighing the good against the bad, that is weighing Warren Buffet against the lady who gave all she had.
As I said IIRC in the very first response to you, I believe we will be judged individually and with love and compassion. I agree with everything you say about how different folk will be judged, and I have never said otherwise. Judgement will be individual, there will be no one standard but instead the judgement will be based on what you did compared to what you could have done.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 2:04 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 1:24 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 113 of 300 (326478)
06-26-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
06-26-2006 10:09 AM


Re: How much love?
If we were sitiing down talking I don't think we're in disagreement. I just have a problem with the term judging as it sounds like a court of law where we argue the merits of the good and bad.
I'm inclined to go along with what Lewis writes on the subject which if I can paraphrase what I think he is saying is just that in the end we choose God's will for our lives or He will allow us to choose our will for our life.
As I said earlier,we say to God thy will be done or He says to us thy will be done. Another way it might be put is this. At the end of our physical life do we have a heart of love for others or is our heart full of love for ourselves.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 10:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 1:40 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 300 (326484)
06-26-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
06-26-2006 1:24 PM


Re: How much love?
I don't think we are really far apart but your questions do let me try to explain and claify some of my beliefs, so keep them comming.
If we were sitiing down talking I don't think we're in disagreement. I just have a problem with the term judging as it sounds like a court of law where we argue the merits of the good and bad.
I do not think it will be a court of LAW. In fact I think the big point of GOD's message is that Law is neither moral or just.
I do think we will be judged on the merits of our behavior. I don't think we will be able to argue very much, GOD will have full and complete knowledge of what we really did and why we did it, even if we do not.
I think the judgement will be one based on Justice and not Law, and I think that is an important distinction.
Laws are absolute. Speed Limit 30 Miles per Hour.
Laws have specific sanctions attached. Five Hundred Dollar Fine, or Loss of License.
I think GOD's will is really pretty simple; Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself.
At Judgement I think each individual will be judged based on how well he or she tried to carry out that will. I think that the Judgement will be individual, that you will be judged based on what you did, what you did not do and what you were capable of doing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 1:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 2:21 PM jar has replied
 Message 157 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 7:25 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 115 of 300 (326496)
06-26-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
06-26-2006 1:40 PM


Re: How much love?
jar writes:
At Judgement I think each individual will be judged based on how well he or she tried to carry out that will. I think that the Judgement will be individual, that you will be judged based on what you did, what you did not do and what you were capable of doing.
I'll be out until tonight, so won't be responding back for a while but I'm wondering if you have read Lewis's "The Great Divorce". My personal thinking is along those lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 1:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 3:58 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 300 (326514)
06-26-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by GDR
06-26-2006 2:21 PM


Re: How much love?
Great Divorce? Sure, it was required reading. Also Mere Christianity, the Space ntrilogy, Perelandra, Silent Planet, and That Hideous Strength, Narnia of course, Abolition, Pain, Screwtape and all. Lots of Lewis and also the other Lewis, Lewis Carroll as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 06-26-2006 2:21 PM GDR has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 300 (326518)
06-26-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
06-25-2006 10:20 AM


Re: Love others and self?
I believe that it is a two part command, and that not everyone loves themselves. In fact, I would say that in particular, most Christians and almost all Fundimentalist or Evangelical Christians definitely don't love themselves.
In my observation, loving oneself is no problem at all. People in general are very egotistical. They think the world of themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 10:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 4:40 PM robinrohan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 300 (326520)
06-26-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 4:34 PM


Re: Love others and self?
In my observation, loving oneself is no problem at all. People in general are very egotistical. They think the world of themselves.
True, but that only shows they have a total misunderstanding of what "Love yourself means."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 4:34 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 4:48 PM jar has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 300 (326525)
06-26-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
06-26-2006 4:40 PM


Re: Love others and self?
True, but that only shows they have a total misunderstanding of what "Love yourself means."
What does it mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 4:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:05 PM robinrohan has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 300 (326527)
06-26-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
06-25-2006 3:05 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
quote:
That is obviously not a two-part command but a command based on a given, that we all love ourselves.
Er, most of the Christians I have encountered on these boards typically do not show much evidence of loving themselves.
Iano, in particular, seems to consider himself quite wretched.
Mike the Wiz and Prophex seem to think humanity in general is wretched and fundamentally awful and flawed.
You do, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 3:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:00 PM nator has not replied
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:15 PM nator has replied

  
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