Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 76 of 300 (324188)
06-21-2006 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Brian
06-20-2006 4:42 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Given that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Jesus Himself, I cannot see how following Islam can be compatible with a very basic Christian teaching.
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
John 14 http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm
Hindus and Sufis would understand Jesus differently than westerners atheistic or believers do. I don't have the documentation at the moment but I know that Sufi's would get in trouble, I believe I recall some were killed because they would enter into ecstatic states and speak in words that seemed to imply they were Allah.
Since the beginnings of Christianity are almost totally obscure there is no way I know to verify this but I think it's possible that Jesus was an awakened individual who was killed before he could develop any disciple to the point of understanding his mind.
It could be that Jesus was teaching the same thing Ramana was teaching that the only way to realize God was through the "I Am". There is no external salvation rather the way is through realization of consciousness being.
While Ghazali stayed within an outwardly orthodox framework, Arabi offered a clearly monistic, gnostic system. "His commentary on the Koran is a tour de force of esoteric interpretation."9 With Arabi the emphasis on the Sufi path "was shifted from moral self-control to metaphysical knowledge with its sequence of psychological ascent to the ”Perfect Man, the microcosm in whom the One is manifested to Himself."10 In his Bozels of Wisdom Arabi explains: "When you know yourself, your ”I’ness vanishes and you know that you and God are one and the same."11
Arabi’s poetic usage of erotic language to signify the relationship of the soul with God set the tone for much of medieval Sufism. Poetry became a favorite medium of expression, the imagery sometimes becoming so sensuous that it is difficult to distinguish whether the "Beloved" being referred to is heavenly or earthly. For the Sufis, this made little difference, since they believed that "”Whether it be this world or that/Thy love will lead thee yonder at the last!"
http://www.equip.org/free/DI200-3.htm
My argument at this point is independent of mystical teachings. I'm simply saying that there are mystical states experienced by individuals East and West where they feel one with the universe, or God, etc. They are not referring to their organism or ego when they do this but to their consciousness which they also see as singular. In this understanding Jesus spoke a truth, the truth but it was misunderstood by his disciples to refer to the individual Jesus rather than that the individual had experienced his oneness with the universe and was speaking of that.
Ramana held that the only path to liberation lay in experiencing the pure "I Am" but that all paths if followed long enough lead to that point. The rest is human delusion and politics.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 4:42 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 77 of 300 (324195)
06-21-2006 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
06-20-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Finally, a correct statement.Yes, I am a Christian.
Strange, I don't recall calling you a Xian in that post, maybe you are a little confused?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:52 PM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 78 of 300 (324196)
06-21-2006 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 6:01 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
It is only for personal curiosity.
The number of followers of a faith has no bearing on its reality. A faith with one member has as much chance as being true as that with 2 billion members. However, the faith of that single person can also be as much nonsense as that of the faith with 2 billion members.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 6:01 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 79 of 300 (324203)
06-21-2006 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 6:03 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Certainly a number of the "salvation by works" types of Christians do believe that a non-Christian can get into heaven.
But Jar is specifically saying that people who deny that Jesus is the incarnation of God will still be saved. This is different from someone who just goes about doing good deeds.
Muslims specifically say that worshipping Jesus is an abomination. Buddhism teaches that there are no eternal beings, thus they do not even entertain the idea of Jesus as God.
But, the Bible is quite explicit about who will be saved
Jesus claims I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me
I don't see where He says, no one comes to the Father except through me and Allah, Buddha, Brahma, and uncle Tom Cobbly and all.
If that isn't explicit enough then the Book of Acts 4:12 claims And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
How obvious does it have to be.
Is it a case of ignoring the bits of the Bible that contradict a particular position?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Whoever believes in Jesus, not for those who specifically deny Him.
Amazing thing a faith isn't it, we can just make things up and call it a faith.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 6:03 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 9:06 AM Brian has replied
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 10:35 AM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 300 (324205)
06-21-2006 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
06-20-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
a) what it is about the statement which makes it work.
When you try to treat others as you would like to be treated, everybody wins.
That is a subjective opinion surely, not something about which one could say "it is true". True for you perhaps?
b) how something working makes it true? My lightswitch works - does that make it true?
ROTFLMAO. It makes it work. Who cares if it is TRUE. That may well be the dumbest question I have EVER seen asked.
I was attempting to point out your weak use of English to you (in this case - your English in the OP was excellent). The statement in which you say is true is incomplete and cannot even claim to be true as it is:
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself is true regardless of the source
Had you said "love God and love others means everyone wins is true - regardless of the source" then there wouldn't be a problem in the sentences structure (aside from whether it is an accurate statement or not)
Your being very evasive Jar. You've put up a statement of belief yet when asked about aspects of it you engage in weaving around with partial statements which don't hold together in themselves and which, when followed up, result in more weaving and attempts at ridicule. Did you not foresee that aspects of your statement would be examined and if so why evade that examination. What was the point?
You could have said you believe "Love God/others" to be true because it works (subjective, for you personally) but when you say it actually is true (objeectively, for all) you must expect to justify that statement with clear reasoning. That reasoning so far?
"It works"
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 9:53 AM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 81 of 300 (324206)
06-21-2006 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by GDR
06-20-2006 11:27 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I suppose one can interpret parts of the Bible to support the view that only Christians have salvation,
I think you have to do some pretty extreme mutilation of the words of Jesus to argue that people who specifically deny Christ will be saved. We certainly have to ignore the texts I provided for Jazz, and ignore the problem of worshipping false idols as well.
but taken in context I think that the Bible is fairly clear that it isn't those who hear the word, but those who do the will of the father that are considered righteous.
And what is the will of the Father? Why is Jesus telling lies about who can be saved?
Just read through Matthew 25, (the sheep and the goats).
I am very familiar with the sheep and the goats teaching, it is a basic Sunday School lesson. I am also aware that the sheep and the goats story actually supports my view and undermines your claim.
Matthew 25 is going about FOLLOWERS of Jesus, not about followers of another faith. It is about people who profess to be a follower of Jesus but do not follow His teachings, which sounds familiar doesn’t it?
Essentially, it claims that anyone can’ say’ they are a Xian, but it is more than a declaration of faith, it is putting Jesus’ teachings into practice.
So, Matthew 25 supports my position because Jesus DID NOT teach that you are saved by following another faith, you are saved through Him. You can ignore the vast majority of Jesus teachings if you wish, but you can’t call it xianity.
I will agree however that through prayer to Jesus our hearts are changed if we are truly open to him.
So, how can people, such as Muslims, possibly pray to Jesus if they think the teaching of the incarnation is an abomination?
Also, what about Muslim parents who teach their children that Jesus’ divinity is an abomination? We know what Jesus said about leading children away from him.
If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Of course, Jesus didn’t really mean this did He?
I think that jar might go further than I would in this area but I am in complete agreement with him that Jesus saves more than just Christians,
If Jesus can save more than Christians, it makes a complete sham of His Crucifixion.
Why not just save people instead of going through the pointless sacrifice?
and I'm also not convinced that all those who call themselves Christians have salvation.
Oh, I couldn’t agree more, it is easy to say you are a Christian, but actually being one is a different matter.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 06-20-2006 11:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 9:14 AM Brian has replied
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 10:49 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 82 of 300 (324228)
06-21-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
06-20-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
When you try to treat others as you would like to be treated, everybody wins.
I hope observe this when that S&M guy who lives near you comes calling.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:30 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 9:21 AM Brian has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 300 (324270)
06-21-2006 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:26 AM


Invalid christian teaching?
But Jar is specifically saying that people who deny that Jesus is the incarnation of God will still be saved. This is different from someone who just goes about doing good deeds.
They aren't neccessarily different.
Is it a case of ignoring the bits of the Bible that contradict a particular position?
Its about looking at the New Testament as a whole and not trying to pick out bits that might seem different than the whole.
I want you to see another christian's opinion on salvation, namely mine, that not believing that Jesus is god does not forfeit your ticket to heaven. You dan't have to believe that Jesus was god to accept salvation.
Now, I'm sure you could pick some lines from the Bible that suggest otherwise, as I could pick some that suggest just this, but certainly, agreeing with this does not mean that you are not a christian. Believing that you have to believe that Jesus is god to get to heaven is not a requirement of christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:26 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 7:56 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 300 (324276)
06-21-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:55 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Essentially, it claims that anyone can’ say’ they are a Xian, but it is more than a declaration of faith, it is putting Jesus’ teachings into practice.
What about someone who puts Jesus' teaching into practice but does not 'say' they are christian?
I'd say they can go to heaven. You think that Jesus' teaches that they can't?
You can ignore the vast majority of Jesus teachings if you wish, but you can’t call it xianity.
Just like you can refrain from calling it christianity while following the vast majority of Jesus' teachings if you wish. I don't think you have to be calling yourself a christian or even actually believe Jesus was god. Its about following what the teachings are (the will of father), not what name you give god.
If a muslim calls god by the wrong name but lives a life that follow what the teachings of Jesus are, don't you think they can go to heaven? You think that Jesus teaches that they can't?
Why not just save people instead of going through the pointless sacrifice?
Thats a thread all in its own.
Oh, I couldn’t agree more, it is easy to say you are a Christian, but actually being one is a different matter.
word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 160 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 300 (324280)
06-21-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Brian
06-21-2006 7:47 AM


do onto others
When you try to treat others as you would like to be treated, everybody wins.
I hope observe this when that S&M guy who lives near you comes calling.
There's a way around this one...
If Jar doesn't want to be in bondage (although I assume he does) then the S&M guy would be doing something to Jar that Jar didn't want done to him. Now, presumably, this guy wouldn't want someone to do something to him that he didn't want done to him, so if he follows the golden rule, he will not tie up Jar.
The problem is with people who would have someone do something to them that they don't want done to them. The thing is, though, do they really not want those things done to them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 7:47 AM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 300 (324298)
06-21-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
06-21-2006 5:39 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
That is a subjective opinion surely, not something about which one could say "it is true". True for you perhaps?
And I cannot say that something subjective is true?
This is your whole point?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 5:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 9:59 AM jar has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 300 (324301)
06-21-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
06-21-2006 9:53 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
You can say that in your opinion something is true. That's fine by me.
Subjectively, its not true that Jesus existed and subjectively true that Love God/others works for you. This is fine too

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:10 AM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 300 (324309)
06-21-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by iano
06-21-2006 9:59 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
I believe that this thread began with a Belief Statement. That is a personal story of my personal beliefs and how they formed. It is but a snapshot of where I am in an ongoing journey. It can never be more than the account, short and by necessity incomplete, of my own trip so far.
You can say that in your opinion something is true.
I can never say more than that. I cannot say that anything is absolutely true with the exception of those mundane things like "it's absolutely true I had Reunion Island Breakfast Blend coffee as the first cup of coffee today."
Subjectively, its not true that Jesus existed and subjectively true that Love God/others works for you.
What?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 9:59 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 10:27 AM jar has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 300 (324316)
06-21-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
06-21-2006 10:10 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Leave the 'what' question unanswered. It doesn't matter now. You are saying clearly above that, what it was I enquiring after:
Jesus never existed as God incarnate in your opinion. That is not, in your opinion true. You look at the evidence and conclude "No" - a mere sheep herder myth
You look at "Love God/love your neighbour" and conlude "true' in your opinion. True because it works for you - no matter who wrote the words.
Is that a correct summation so far?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:53 AM iano has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 90 of 300 (324322)
06-21-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:26 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:
But, the Bible is quite explicit about who will be saved
Jesus claims I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me
I don't see where He says, no one comes to the Father except through me and Allah, Buddha, Brahma, and uncle Tom Cobbly and all.
If that isn't explicit enough then the Book of Acts 4:12 claims And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
How obvious does it have to be.
Is it a case of ignoring the bits of the Bible that contradict a particular position?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Whoever believes in Jesus, not for those who specifically deny Him.
Hi Brian
First off thanks for the "Uncle Tom Cobbly and All". My grandfather use to sing that to me over half a century ago and I haven't thought of it in years.
All of the quotes that you give from the Bible tell us just who it is that does the saving. It doesn't exclude others although I agree you can come up with verses that sound more exclusive. However the Bible has to be read in context.
Jar talked about this earlier. CS Lewis in the book "The Last Battle" from the Narnia series relates how a soldier in the army of Tash, who had fought against the allegorical Christ, (Aslan) found himself in an allegorical heaven.
CS Lewis is probably the greatest Christian apologist of the last or any century. His thinking certainly has to be considered mainstream.
CS Lewis in "The Last Battle" writes:
So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him.
But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas< Lord< I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.
Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites., I take to me the services which thou hastt done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:26 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:44 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024