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Author Topic:   Too much moderation on these boards?
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 201 (317022)
06-02-2006 12:56 PM


During the short time I've been lurking and sometimes nosing in on conversations, I've noticed that I can't really read more than a page without seeing some kind of moderation going on. The topic proposal process was mind blowing to me when I first saw that, but I guess it was justified. Then I noticed that there were members who were limited to certain forums. Then one day I noticed the retired forums and saw that there were in the past forums specifically designed to box in certain members. What I noticed next were more moderations every other page. In the propose new topics itself, I started noticing admins debating before the topic was even promoted, sometimes up to two pages (I call this the pre-debate debate). Then, I noticed some more moderations.
Now, we have a showcase forum where those of us who actually see a topic that we're interested in that hasn't already been beaten up badly by other people have to go through long strenuous process to get special permission to participate.
The words that naturally come to my mouth are "HOLY MOLY!" This forum is the closest thing to a moderation nazi forum.
Is there such a thing as too much moderation?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Quetzal, posted 06-02-2006 1:14 PM rgb has not replied
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 Message 5 by purpledawn, posted 06-02-2006 2:28 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 10 by randman, posted 06-02-2006 7:39 PM rgb has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2 of 201 (317026)
06-02-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by rgb
06-02-2006 12:56 PM


I dunno, rgb. There are days when I say the same, and others when I feel that - due to the nature of the controversy - the moderation has an acceptable level. A lot of us whined about the closure of the "Free For All" forum, but it never got reinstated (talk about the Wild Wild West). On the other hand, a lot of us whined about the existence of the "Boot Camp" forum as well, and it got closed. I haven't gotten around to whining about the "Showcase" forum yet, but my opinion is "WTF?" I can't imagine a more, hmmm, problematic approach.
As to in-thread moderation, I've seen way over-modded topics, and topics that could have used more moderation. Most of the moderation is pretty even-handed (there have been exceptions). It's a desperate attempt to try and keep things civil and on-topic. The PNT system and the increasing moderation is a reaction to the "bad old days" where the on-topic life-expectency of a thread was about a page and a half. Yeah, it can be a distraction to see all those red OFF TOPIC flags all over the place, but the mods have been pretty good about quickly promoting PNT's that weren't simply call-outs and derive from an interesting sub-thread.
Like I said, there are days when it's good, and days when it's really overbearing. Maybe because we're all human?

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 3 of 201 (317029)
06-02-2006 1:31 PM


Well speaking as someone who has come a cropper a couple of times already ;-) I'd have to say that I approve who the modding here.
Of course there will always be some inconsistencies in how the procedures play out, but I'd far prefer that than having a board full of flame wars.
I would like to know what is going on the the Davison thread, though.

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 4 of 201 (317032)
06-02-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by rgb
06-02-2006 12:56 PM


I for one, wouldn't bother posting much here if it wasn't for decent moderation. There are plenty of would-be opinion expressers out there who haven't got the background to sustain a decent debate on some of thescience topics and there is a real need to ride herd on them or the real science contributors will just leave. That is not to say that non-science people shouldn't have a fair chance to get sincere questions answered, but the obvious trolls must be sanctioned and segregated if they won't play by the rules. While I have ocassinally been cautioned on a rant, there are plenty more times I have needed moderation to stop some troll derailling a decent thread.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 201 (317041)
06-02-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by rgb
06-02-2006 12:56 PM


Not a Flamethrower
It was the moderation and attempt at civil debate and discussion that I found attractive about this baord.
Without it, I wouldn't continue here.
I'm not much of a flamethrower.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 201 (317066)
06-02-2006 6:31 PM


I think the moderation here is by an large a good thing. Sometimes I perceive bias, but given that its me (or my ilk) who I perceive to be the subject of bias I must exclude my (and my ilks) perception - on the basis of my (and my ilks) self-bias.
The aim of in-thread modding is to keep the thread on topic - a new thread is always an option. There are times though, when the thread has long since headed off elsewhere and has transmuted quite successfully into a discussion on something else - making an "STOP!! STEP OUT OF THE VEHICLE" warning somwhat irritating.
But overall I find the moderation even-handed. They usually take the time to check things out and aren't way off in the deliberation. If it seems a bit hit and miss at times (you get away with one thing to day and tomorrow you don't) has more to do with time availability of mods + the intricacies and emotions involved in such debate than it has to do with the principle of moderation.
I think the rate and level of the discussion is further along that the availability of moderation to keep up. Long may it continue!
Take or leave it? I'd take it overall. Far and away so. An unmodded EvC? No thanks

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 06-02-2006 6:50 PM iano has replied
 Message 11 by rgb, posted 06-02-2006 9:42 PM iano has replied
 Message 13 by Admin, posted 06-03-2006 7:41 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 201 (317070)
06-02-2006 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
06-02-2006 6:31 PM


quote:
I think the moderation here is by an large a good thing. Sometimes I perceive bias, but given that its me (or my ilk) who I perceive to be the subject of bias I must exclude my (and my ilks) perception - on the basis of my (and my ilks) self-bias.
It's not just your "ilk" who perceive a bias in the moderation here, ian.
I, too, have noticed that the people on your side of the fence tend to get quite a free rein, especially regarding using abusive, obsfucative language, or just not debating in good faith, compared to those on my side.
That's coz the anti-evolution (often also religious) folks are so hard to keep around if they are held to the same standards of behavior as the science-minded folks.
Believe me, I've been an EVC member since it was a Yahoo club, and that's how it's always been.
Edited by schrafinator, : fixt splelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 6:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:21 PM nator has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 201 (317074)
06-02-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
06-02-2006 6:50 PM


iano writes:
I must exclude my (and my ilks) perception - on the basis of my (and my ilks) self-bias.
Its not as big a pill to swallow as you might think Schraf.
{AbE} I mean should you ever get around to considering swallowing it too
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 06-02-2006 6:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 06-03-2006 7:52 AM iano has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 9 of 201 (317081)
06-02-2006 7:32 PM


human nature
There are not that many people truly capable and willing to be unbiased. By that I mean that first people generally reflect a bias based on their beliefs regardless of what they themselves think, and secondly, it is rare to even find people COMPLETELY willing to be unbiased in their exercise of authority (even as mods) at any level, judges, police, politicians, beaurocrats, etc,....in certain situations. For example, you may be a great teacher that grades liberals and conservatives equally, but could be so passionate on the issue of, say, the evo debate or some other subject that this same person cannot truly be objective.
With that being said, if most of the mods or most people in any group with some "authority" to do something, or most if not nearly all active mods, are evolutionists, it is natural that there will be a bias in that direction. This is not meant to be an offensive charge to rile anyone up, but I think if all the mods were young earth creationists, you would see a bias in the other direction.

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 06-03-2006 8:04 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 10 of 201 (317082)
06-02-2006 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by rgb
06-02-2006 12:56 PM


don't disagree but.....
I would say the Showcase forum is needed. I probably would not have returned without this new forum (though the thread I am on may need another good evo poster along with WK) if the forum did not exist that limited some folks from being involved, and even though I have had some very public differences with percy, I think his idea here will work. In a curious manner, I think his insistence that the moderation by him on that board will be, for lack of a better word, autocratic, will ironically make it likely to work better, at least for that one forum.
The reason is that there won't be appeals, discussion, etc,....about the moderation which thus far I don't think have yielded much fruit, and if he bans someone or something, he can just say, on this forum, it doesn't matter. No explanations given and no discussion.
Of course, it could still turn out badly, but I'd like to have some discussions not based on simply vilifying the opposition which too often seems to be the way these things go.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 201 (317106)
06-02-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
06-02-2006 6:31 PM


iano writes
quote:
An unmodded EvC? No thanks
Pardon me for my frustration, but the next time someone makes a claim that just because one extreme is bad then the other extreme must be good then I will blow my f*cking head off.
It's like saying, "honey, don't you think you've had enough food today?" and then get the response, "but if I don't ever eat at all I will starve to death."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 201 (317148)
06-03-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by rgb
06-02-2006 9:42 PM


that is the nature of idiocy, and unfortunately, the internet is full of idiots.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 201 (317171)
06-03-2006 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
06-02-2006 6:31 PM


iano writes:
If it seems a bit hit and miss at times (you get away with one thing to day and tomorrow you don't)...
Very true. See my traffic laws analogy.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 201 (317173)
06-03-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
06-02-2006 7:21 PM


quote:
Its not as big a pill to swallow as you might think Schraf.
{AbE} I mean should you ever get around to considering swallowing it too
Like I said, and you have just demonstrated, people on your side of the fence are not pressed to debate in good faith, and are allowed to persist in bad habits such as avoidant or obsfucative responses like the above.
For years have I observed this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 06-02-2006 7:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 8:43 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 201 (317175)
06-03-2006 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
06-02-2006 7:32 PM


Re: human nature
quote:
With that being said, if most of the mods or most people in any group with some "authority" to do something, or most if not nearly all active mods, are evolutionists, it is natural that there will be a bias in that direction. This is not meant to be an offensive charge to rile anyone up, but I think if all the mods were young earth creationists, you would see a bias in the other direction.
While it is true that individuals cannot, as you say, ever be completely free of bias, I really must say that my experience as members of boards moderated by both evos and YEC's are VERY different.
Evo moderated boards, especially this one, allow a much, much greater diversity of opinion, generally welcome honest and vigorous debate while discouraging flaming.
The YEC board experiences I have had are quite the opposite. Poor quality debate, refusal to address points was acceptable, any persistence was considered "rude", censoring and deletion of posts which would be lauded as POTM here are commonplace.
Perhaps the "bias" of the two camps is that in the evo's case, excellent debate for it's own sake is appreciated and the very existence and documentation of the beliefs of others, although disagreed with, are not considered a threat to one's own to be erased as it seems to be in the YEC's case.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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